Formula 1 2021
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@mariner4life said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage i laughed out loud when i read his quote
for how many years now have you obviously had the fastest car Lewis? doesn't count then? I thought it was all about the driver?
To be fair I can’t remember too many times that Hamilton entered into that debate. Verstappen, Vettel on the other hand…
Oh and legions of fans from either side 😀
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@catogrande said in Formula 1 2021:
@mariner4life said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage i laughed out loud when i read his quote
for how many years now have you obviously had the fastest car Lewis? doesn't count then? I thought it was all about the driver?
To be fair I can’t remember too many times that Hamilton entered into that debate. Verstappen, Vettel on the other hand…
Oh and legions of fans from either side 😀
You don't have to enter it from the fast side...
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@mariner4life said in Formula 1 2021:
@catogrande said in Formula 1 2021:
@mariner4life said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage i laughed out loud when i read his quote
for how many years now have you obviously had the fastest car Lewis? doesn't count then? I thought it was all about the driver?
To be fair I can’t remember too many times that Hamilton entered into that debate. Verstappen, Vettel on the other hand…
Oh and legions of fans from either side 😀
You don't have to enter it from the fast side...
True but that is not what your post implied 😬
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Man Hamilton had a weekend for the ages there. Dropped to last because of a Technical infringement, an air gap in his wing had opened up over the course of qualifying. Managed to smash into 10th on the grid with the spring qualifying. Just now a heck of a drive, to take the flag over taking Verstappen a few laps to go. He had kept the championship alive. Maybe a dickhead, but he can certainly perform in the big ones
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@machpants I actually don’t mind Hamilton. If he is arrogant he has certainly earned the right to be. There’s been any number of drivers over the years who talk a good game but fail to deliver on the track. Hamilton certainly isn’t one of those.
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I think he's a twat but there's no denying his tremendous talent. That was an amazing performance.
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@machpants said in Formula 1 2021:
Man Hamilton had a weekend for the ages there. Dropped to last because of a Technical infringement, an air gap in his wing had opened up over the course of qualifying. Managed to smash into 10th on the grid with the spring qualifying. Just now a heck of a drive, to take the flag over taking Verstappen a few laps to go. He had kept the championship alive. Maybe a dickhead, but he can certainly perform in the big ones
He actually smashed into 5th but took another 5 place penalty. In front of Verstappen by ten seconds at the flag. Outrageous pace difference but it was a classy drive.
Did make me smile when he heard the stewards weren't investigating Verstappen pushing him wide "oh no of course not no".
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You can't really take anything away from Hamilton - last to first is always spectacular. But why is nobody talking bout the clear gaming of the rules by Mercedes?
You are allowed 3 engines a year. Mercedes have blatantly built a power unit within the regulations which cannot last 8 races. They've built one which maybe lasts for 5. Hamilton is now on his 5th engine. Whilst other teams are using the older engines, Hamilton puts in a brand new one, and in the space of week goes from being off the pace vs Verstappen, to suddenly being a second a lap faster. The start of the sprint was utterly ridiculous. He just floored it, moved to the right and passed about 6 cars on the strait. He needs an advantage of at least 200 hp to be able do that.
Mercedes have calculated that putting in a new engine gives them that much of an advantage that the 5 grid penalty is totally worth it. If you have 200bhp advantage, a 5 place grid penalty is absolute peanuts.
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Given the technology, skills and resource in engine maintenance in F1 would the deterioration be that significant to allow so much of an advantage? You'd have to see a near 25% deterioration, would that be right?
But yes it does seem to be a clear strategy.
What did you think of the Verstappen manoeuvre, pushing Hamilton wide? I didn't see the race live but looking at it in the highlights it certainly seemed worthy of a bit more attention than the stewards gave it.
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@catogrande said in Formula 1 2021:
Given the technology, skills and resource in engine maintenance in F1 would the deterioration be that significant to allow so much of an advantage? You'd have to see a near 25% deterioration, would that be right?
But yes it does seem to be a clear strategy.
What did you think of the Verstappen manoeuvre, pushing Hamilton wide? I didn't see the race live but looking at it in the highlights it certainly seemed worthy of a bit more attention than the stewards gave it.
I was more surprised that the stewards didn't seem bothered by the track limits violations.
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@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
You can't really take anything away from Hamilton - last to first is always spectacular. But why is nobody talking bout the clear gaming of the rules by Mercedes?
You are allowed 3 engines a year. Mercedes have blatantly built a power unit within the regulations which cannot last 8 races. They've built one which maybe lasts for 5. Hamilton is now on his 5th engine. Whilst other teams are using the older engines, Hamilton puts in a brand new one, and in the space of week goes from being off the pace vs Verstappen, to suddenly being a second a lap faster. The start of the sprint was utterly ridiculous. He just floored it, moved to the right and passed about 6 cars on the strait. He needs an advantage of at least 200 hp to be able do that.
Mercedes have calculated that putting in a new engine gives them that much of an advantage that the 5 grid penalty is totally worth it. If you have 200bhp advantage, a 5 place grid penalty is absolute peanuts.
Actually, that isn't true about the engines and Mercedes in particular. And you would be hard pressed to argue and prove that they blatantly or purposefully developed an engine that wouldn't last to gain an advantage.
Yes, Mercedes engines have had reliability issues all season (you could better argue this has negatively impacted the performance of Mercedes) and both Hamilton and Bottas have taken additional engines but most of the other teams, in particular McLaren who have Mercedes supplied engines, have taken additional engines.
And it's not just Mercedes and McLaren who have done this but other teams. Both Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez have faced grid penalties in 2021 after taking a new engine so this is actually common. Hence why there are rules that govern it and penalties given.
It is well within the rules to do so and each time you do, depending on the particular component, you will take a grid place penalty for the race.
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@roninwc said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
You can't really take anything away from Hamilton - last to first is always spectacular. But why is nobody talking bout the clear gaming of the rules by Mercedes?
You are allowed 3 engines a year. Mercedes have blatantly built a power unit within the regulations which cannot last 8 races. They've built one which maybe lasts for 5. Hamilton is now on his 5th engine. Whilst other teams are using the older engines, Hamilton puts in a brand new one, and in the space of week goes from being off the pace vs Verstappen, to suddenly being a second a lap faster. The start of the sprint was utterly ridiculous. He just floored it, moved to the right and passed about 6 cars on the strait. He needs an advantage of at least 200 hp to be able do that.
Mercedes have calculated that putting in a new engine gives them that much of an advantage that the 5 grid penalty is totally worth it. If you have 200bhp advantage, a 5 place grid penalty is absolute peanuts.
Actually, that isn't true about the engines and Mercedes in particular. And you would be hard pressed to argue and prove that they blatantly or purposefully developed an engine that wouldn't last to gain an advantage.
Yes, Mercedes engines have had reliability issues all season (you could better argue this has negatively impacted the performance of Mercedes) and both Hamilton and Bottas have taken additional engines but most of the other teams, in particular McLaren who have Mercedes supplied engines, have taken additional engines.
And it's not just Mercedes and McLaren who have done this but other teams. Both Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez have faced grid penalties in 2021 after taking a new engine so this is actually common. Hence why there are rules that govern it and penalties given.
It is well within the rules to do so and each time you do, depending on the particular component, you will take a grid place penalty for the race.
Very little of your post disagrees with me.
Mercedes themselves said they would have no power left if they didn’t change.
Are you honestly suggesting Mercedes new engines arent much faster than their old?
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@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
@roninwc said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
You can't really take anything away from Hamilton - last to first is always spectacular. But why is nobody talking bout the clear gaming of the rules by Mercedes?
You are allowed 3 engines a year. Mercedes have blatantly built a power unit within the regulations which cannot last 8 races. They've built one which maybe lasts for 5. Hamilton is now on his 5th engine. Whilst other teams are using the older engines, Hamilton puts in a brand new one, and in the space of week goes from being off the pace vs Verstappen, to suddenly being a second a lap faster. The start of the sprint was utterly ridiculous. He just floored it, moved to the right and passed about 6 cars on the strait. He needs an advantage of at least 200 hp to be able do that.
Mercedes have calculated that putting in a new engine gives them that much of an advantage that the 5 grid penalty is totally worth it. If you have 200bhp advantage, a 5 place grid penalty is absolute peanuts.
Actually, that isn't true about the engines and Mercedes in particular. And you would be hard pressed to argue and prove that they blatantly or purposefully developed an engine that wouldn't last to gain an advantage.
Yes, Mercedes engines have had reliability issues all season (you could better argue this has negatively impacted the performance of Mercedes) and both Hamilton and Bottas have taken additional engines but most of the other teams, in particular McLaren who have Mercedes supplied engines, have taken additional engines.
And it's not just Mercedes and McLaren who have done this but other teams. Both Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez have faced grid penalties in 2021 after taking a new engine so this is actually common. Hence why there are rules that govern it and penalties given.
It is well within the rules to do so and each time you do, depending on the particular component, you will take a grid place penalty for the race.
Very little of your post disagrees with me.
Mercedes themselves said they would have no power left if they didn’t change.
Are you honestly suggesting Mercedes new engines arent much faster than their old?
LOL, I contradicted your post pointing out:
It actually puts Mercedes at a disadvantage because of the grid penalties
They are not the only team taking extra engines which includes Red Bull
The new engines are not faster as such because all the engines are limited by the rules to a specific output maximumAre the new engines faster than the ones they are replacing? Well clearly yes because the engine being replaced is not functioning correctly and/or has lost power and/or is below acceptable tolerances for the team and they are prepared to take the penalty.
And exactly the same applies to all the other teams taking new engines.
To single out Mercedes and saying they have an advantage for taking extra engines is just stupid because what they are doing is within the rules and they are penalised for taking a new engine, just as all the other teams doing so are as well.
As I said, Mercedes are clearly having reliability/performance issues with the engines, as the F1 commentators are at pains to point out repeatedly during the broadcasts and the F1 shows. So by taking a new engine, they aren't gaining any advantage, rather it puts them back to where they should be with an engine that is performing to spec and they consider the tradeoff of a grid penalty worth it.
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@roninwc said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
@roninwc said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
You can't really take anything away from Hamilton - last to first is always spectacular. But why is nobody talking bout the clear gaming of the rules by Mercedes?
You are allowed 3 engines a year. Mercedes have blatantly built a power unit within the regulations which cannot last 8 races. They've built one which maybe lasts for 5. Hamilton is now on his 5th engine. Whilst other teams are using the older engines, Hamilton puts in a brand new one, and in the space of week goes from being off the pace vs Verstappen, to suddenly being a second a lap faster. The start of the sprint was utterly ridiculous. He just floored it, moved to the right and passed about 6 cars on the strait. He needs an advantage of at least 200 hp to be able do that.
Mercedes have calculated that putting in a new engine gives them that much of an advantage that the 5 grid penalty is totally worth it. If you have 200bhp advantage, a 5 place grid penalty is absolute peanuts.
Actually, that isn't true about the engines and Mercedes in particular. And you would be hard pressed to argue and prove that they blatantly or purposefully developed an engine that wouldn't last to gain an advantage.
Yes, Mercedes engines have had reliability issues all season (you could better argue this has negatively impacted the performance of Mercedes) and both Hamilton and Bottas have taken additional engines but most of the other teams, in particular McLaren who have Mercedes supplied engines, have taken additional engines.
And it's not just Mercedes and McLaren who have done this but other teams. Both Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez have faced grid penalties in 2021 after taking a new engine so this is actually common. Hence why there are rules that govern it and penalties given.
It is well within the rules to do so and each time you do, depending on the particular component, you will take a grid place penalty for the race.
Very little of your post disagrees with me.
Mercedes themselves said they would have no power left if they didn’t change.
Are you honestly suggesting Mercedes new engines arent much faster than their old?
LOL, I contradicted your post pointing out:
It actually puts Mercedes at a disadvantage because of the grid penalties
They are not the only team taking extra engines which includes Red Bull
The new engines are not faster as such because all the engines are limited by the rules to a specific output maximumYou sure? The regulations dictate they must be a 1.6l 90degree four stroke V6 restricted to 15000rpm and 100kg/h fuel mass flow.
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@antipodean said in Formula 1 2021:
@roninwc said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
@roninwc said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
You can't really take anything away from Hamilton - last to first is always spectacular. But why is nobody talking bout the clear gaming of the rules by Mercedes?
You are allowed 3 engines a year. Mercedes have blatantly built a power unit within the regulations which cannot last 8 races. They've built one which maybe lasts for 5. Hamilton is now on his 5th engine. Whilst other teams are using the older engines, Hamilton puts in a brand new one, and in the space of week goes from being off the pace vs Verstappen, to suddenly being a second a lap faster. The start of the sprint was utterly ridiculous. He just floored it, moved to the right and passed about 6 cars on the strait. He needs an advantage of at least 200 hp to be able do that.
Mercedes have calculated that putting in a new engine gives them that much of an advantage that the 5 grid penalty is totally worth it. If you have 200bhp advantage, a 5 place grid penalty is absolute peanuts.
Actually, that isn't true about the engines and Mercedes in particular. And you would be hard pressed to argue and prove that they blatantly or purposefully developed an engine that wouldn't last to gain an advantage.
Yes, Mercedes engines have had reliability issues all season (you could better argue this has negatively impacted the performance of Mercedes) and both Hamilton and Bottas have taken additional engines but most of the other teams, in particular McLaren who have Mercedes supplied engines, have taken additional engines.
And it's not just Mercedes and McLaren who have done this but other teams. Both Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez have faced grid penalties in 2021 after taking a new engine so this is actually common. Hence why there are rules that govern it and penalties given.
It is well within the rules to do so and each time you do, depending on the particular component, you will take a grid place penalty for the race.
Very little of your post disagrees with me.
Mercedes themselves said they would have no power left if they didn’t change.
Are you honestly suggesting Mercedes new engines arent much faster than their old?
LOL, I contradicted your post pointing out:
It actually puts Mercedes at a disadvantage because of the grid penalties
They are not the only team taking extra engines which includes Red Bull
The new engines are not faster as such because all the engines are limited by the rules to a specific output maximumYou sure? The regulations dictate they must be a 1.6l 90degree four stroke V6 restricted to 15000rpm and 100kg/h fuel mass flow.
I stand corrected. Just doing a Google search, I am mistaken in terms of output. There are a lot of regulations around the engines as you have said @antipodean but that doesn't take away from my points above.
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@roninwc said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
@roninwc said in Formula 1 2021:
@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
You can't really take anything away from Hamilton - last to first is always spectacular. But why is nobody talking bout the clear gaming of the rules by Mercedes?
You are allowed 3 engines a year. Mercedes have blatantly built a power unit within the regulations which cannot last 8 races. They've built one which maybe lasts for 5. Hamilton is now on his 5th engine. Whilst other teams are using the older engines, Hamilton puts in a brand new one, and in the space of week goes from being off the pace vs Verstappen, to suddenly being a second a lap faster. The start of the sprint was utterly ridiculous. He just floored it, moved to the right and passed about 6 cars on the strait. He needs an advantage of at least 200 hp to be able do that.
Mercedes have calculated that putting in a new engine gives them that much of an advantage that the 5 grid penalty is totally worth it. If you have 200bhp advantage, a 5 place grid penalty is absolute peanuts.
Actually, that isn't true about the engines and Mercedes in particular. And you would be hard pressed to argue and prove that they blatantly or purposefully developed an engine that wouldn't last to gain an advantage.
Yes, Mercedes engines have had reliability issues all season (you could better argue this has negatively impacted the performance of Mercedes) and both Hamilton and Bottas have taken additional engines but most of the other teams, in particular McLaren who have Mercedes supplied engines, have taken additional engines.
And it's not just Mercedes and McLaren who have done this but other teams. Both Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez have faced grid penalties in 2021 after taking a new engine so this is actually common. Hence why there are rules that govern it and penalties given.
It is well within the rules to do so and each time you do, depending on the particular component, you will take a grid place penalty for the race.
Very little of your post disagrees with me.
Mercedes themselves said they would have no power left if they didn’t change.
Are you honestly suggesting Mercedes new engines arent much faster than their old?
LOL, I contradicted your post pointing out:
!!!LOL!!!! Love a LOL!! You've contradicted nothing of mine. Perhaps yourself.
It actually puts Mercedes at a disadvantage because of the grid penalties
Maybe you should re-read my post. Try this sentence for starters - Mercedes have calculated that putting in a new engine gives them that much of an advantage that the 5 grid penalty is totally worth it.
They are not the only team taking extra engines which includes Red Bull
Please quote directly, take a photo even, of where I stated Mercedes were the only team doing it.
The new engines are not faster as such because all the engines are limited by the rules to a specific output maximum
Are the new engines faster than the ones they are replacing? Well clearly yes because the engine being replaced is not functioning correctly and/or has lost power and/or is below acceptable tolerances for the team and they are prepared to take the penalty.
So the new engines are not faster, but they are faster than the ones they are replacing?
And exactly the same applies to all the other teams taking new engines.
Where did I say Mercedes were playing by different rules.
To single out Mercedes and saying they have an advantage for taking extra engines is just stupid because what they are doing is within the rules and they are penalised for taking a new engine, just as all the other teams doing so are as well.
IT seems to me you are suggesting that Mercedes are gaming the rules. I'm sure I've read that somewhere before.
As I said, Mercedes are clearly having reliability/performance issues with the engines, as the F1 commentators are at pains to point out repeatedly during the broadcasts and the F1 shows. So by taking a new engine, they aren't gaining any advantage, rather it puts them back to where they should be with an engine that is performing to spec and they consider the tradeoff of a grid penalty worth it.
Performing to spec? You men performing much faster than everybody else and lasting not as long as F1 regulations require?
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Meanwhile, Mercedes are about to present further evidence regarding the incident at turn 4. Apparently this is comprised of in car footage which bizarrely not available at the time.
Oddly though I felt that the on board footage from Verstappen’s car bore out his view that he just couldn’t make the apex. It didn’t seem to show him steering wide or making any changes to force Hamilton wider. So I guess the question is whether or not Verstappen was wilfully reckless in going into the corner too hot.
My money is on “just a racing incident. Move on”.
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@catogrande said in Formula 1 2021:
Meanwhile, Mercedes are about to present further evidence regarding the incident at turn 4. Apparently this is comprised of in car footage which bizarrely not available at the time.
Oddly though I felt that the on board footage from Verstappen’s car bore out his view that he just couldn’t make the apex. It didn’t seem to show him steering wide or making any changes to force Hamilton wider. So I guess the question is whether or not Verstappen was wilfully reckless in going into the corner too hot.
My money is on “just a racing incident. Move on”.
I have no idea how he got away with that at the time. He ran wide as he was going too fast, which prevented a pass from happening. If anything, I thought it was the best point in the race to show Hamilton's ability in that he avoided the collision.
In my view it was sanctionable at the time, but not looking back.
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@majorrage said in Formula 1 2021:
@catogrande said in Formula 1 2021:
Meanwhile, Mercedes are about to present further evidence regarding the incident at turn 4. Apparently this is comprised of in car footage which bizarrely not available at the time.
Oddly though I felt that the on board footage from Verstappen’s car bore out his view that he just couldn’t make the apex. It didn’t seem to show him steering wide or making any changes to force Hamilton wider. So I guess the question is whether or not Verstappen was wilfully reckless in going into the corner too hot.
My money is on “just a racing incident. Move on”.
I have no idea how he got away with that at the time. He ran wide as he was going too fast, which prevented a pass from happening. If anything, I thought it was the best point in the race to show Hamilton's ability in that he avoided the collision.
In my view it was sanctionable at the time, but not looking back.
Your thoughts chime with mine, in particular that it was dealt with at the time and I'm kind of against retrospective penalties in sport, but Mercedes think they have new evidence, which really should have been available at the time, so they have a point. It's just that from what I've seen, it doesn't materially affect things.
