Hillsborough

alexnicholas

As someone who grew up in England in the 70s and 80s my recollections are that there was definitely a hooligan problem but Liverpool fans were pretty decent compared to other fans. You have to remember the Heysel tragedy was caused by stuffing the fans into an ill-equipped stadium.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577459" data-time="1462525301">
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Are you actually serious?
 
Do you know why English clubs were banned from Europe? Hint: Liverpool
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Whilst that is undeniably true, I would have thought that everything that has come out of the Hillsborough tragedy would give you pause for thought before following the party line about blame. To save you having to go back and read the relevant point in my post I will copy it here:-
 
The Heysel disaster was a stand out of course but there are two elements in that that need to be taken into account. Firstly most of Liverpool's hooligan issues were on away trips in Europe. The pattern you allude to was mostly opportunistic travelling hooligans that were not usually evident away from such games. Secondly although it was the Liverpool fans that pulled down the fences at Heysel, this was because they were getting crushed in a very small area where too many had been crammed in. The tearing down of the fences triggered the fighting between the fans which in turn led to a wall collapsing in the dilapidated stadium. Whilst it is true to say the behaviour of the fans contributed to the tragedy the common link between here and Hillsborough is two-fold. A poorly maintained, out of date stadium and poor crowd control/policing.
 
The Liverpool fans did not go on an orgy of violence killing Italian fans. A wall in a substandard, dilapidated stadium collapsed killing those fans. For sure the fighting between the fans caused the wall to fall, but the fighting itself was caused in the main by the poor crowd control, cramming the Liverpool supporters into an area far too small for the numbers.
 
Just take a moment to think about this. It is the European Cup Final. The biggest game of the year for European club soccer. The choice of stadium and the method of policing of the crowd ought to match the sheer scale of the game. It did not go anywhere near that. No real blame and certainly no culpability was laid at the door of EUEFA, all that happened was that ever so quietly they had a good look at stadia suitability and policing. Meanwhile, lay the blame demonstrably at a conveniently easy target which is partly credible.
 
Please feel free to refute my views, I'll be happy to hear something new on this subject.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="alexnicholas" data-cid="577496" data-time="1462529833">
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As someone who grew up in England in the 70s and 80s my recollections are that there was definitely a hooligan problem but Liverpool fans were pretty decent compared to other fans. You have to remember the Heysel tragedy was caused by stuffing the fans into an ill-equipped stadium. 
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What he said.

Cookie

Yes. The teams with bad reps for hooliganism at the time were the likes of Milwall, West Ham, Leeds and Chelsea. Not Liverpool. 
As mentioned by Cato may stadia were ill equipped at the time and given that fans were generally treated like animals (and often behaved that way) it was a tragedy waiting to happen. 
Then there was the appalling cover up afterwards. I think there was a general dislike of Liverpool by the Sun, the police and especially government at the time - who all colluded in the cluster-fuck that was to follow. If the tragedy had happened in London I think we would have got to the truth a lot sooner.

rotated

Genuine question - was it established if there was a rush of patrons without tickets that entered the ground and to what degree?

da_grubster

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577382" data-time="1462514426">Why do you think they are unrelated? Police reacted to a pattern of behaviour which was particularly poor from one football club. 
 
The cover ups and lies in the aftermatch by the police are unforgivable. They deserve to be vilified. But saying they are unrelated events is extremely ignorant. </blockquote>
 
You are talking about a game that happened in 1985 as opposed to a game that happened in 1989, in different countries. How are they related? 
Heysel will always be the lowest point for LFC, but every club suffered with violence at this time. Not just Liverpool. In fact, Liverpool wasn't renowned for hooloiganism. 
Justice for Heysel happened with a number of people imprisoned.

da_grubster

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577447" data-time="1462524217">I understand the delusion of people who buy into the typical Liverpool, woe is me narrative. Talk to the supporters OF ANY OTHER CLUB who are older than 40, and you'll hear exactly what I'm telling you.</blockquote>
 
This delusion you talk about has affected you in the exact opposite way. Couldn't give two shits if you hate Liverpool. Most people that do are generally United fans. 
You trolling effort on the back of this week is very poor. Your ignorant views are regurgitated bullshit

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="577525" data-time="1462551027">Genuine question - was it established if there was a rush of patrons without tickets that entered the ground and to what degree?</blockquote>
 
Just ignore that red herring. It would only be relevant if ALL the fans that rushed in were without tickets and even then it doesn't really matter unless you are implying that the crush outside was a deliberate tactic to force that gates to open. 
I have kept away from commenting again here because of the obvious situation where my original comment having some small feeling still of the fans contributing to what went down being taken in every way except how I intended it. 
I do want to dis- associate my views with those of Richie. 
As I explained, my view was based on my experiences at the time and just how frightening crowd behaviour was in those days. I am not a football fan and have no allegiance to any team. I don't really care whether the fans were from Liverpool or Mars. 
My views are obviously at odds to those of others, and probably the best example is the post that says that the fans at Heysel weren't responsible for the fighting, the stadia/ crowd control was. 
I understand where that view comes from but to me a stadia doesn't make humans fight it only triggers the bad behaviour. Just as poor gate strategy doesn't make people push and shove like cornered animals but it does create the right environment for that to happen. 
My original "feeling" still stands that mob like behaviour (which was quite normal in those times at football games) was an undeniable part of what happened and in some small part contributed. 
PS: this comment applies to those outside the ground NOT the victims inside.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="577534" data-time="1462566538">
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Just ignore that red herring. It would only be relevant if ALL the fans that rushed in were without tickets and even then it doesn't really matter unless you are implying that the crush outside was a deliberate tactic to force that gates to open.
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I'm not implying anything. I genuinely want to know - I've tried searching. But it is generally mentioned that the police primarily blamed a rush on the gates for the the disaster - and subsequently failings by them seemed to play more of a factor. But I'm not sure whether that means no unticketed patrons rushed (and the police were lying), or they did but all the other factors got the focus.
 
I would think if you entered that area without a ticket you certainly contributed to what occurred, no?

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Cookie" data-cid="577510" data-time="1462533091">
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Yes. The teams with bad reps for hooliganism at the time were the likes of Milwall, West Ham, Leeds and Chelsea. Not Liverpool. 
As mentioned by Cato may stadia were ill equipped at the time and given that fans were generally treated like animals (and often behaved that way) it was a tragedy waiting to happen. 
Then there was the appalling cover up afterwards. I think there was a general dislike of Liverpool by the Sun, the police and especially government at the time - who all colluded in the cluster-fuck that was to follow. If the tragedy had happened in London I think we would have got to the truth a lot sooner.
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A mate of mine is from Newcastle and being an ex boxer and scrapper in general said all the shit that went down before, during and after games was the main reason so many people got into hooliganism, many of them weren't football fans on any level but just went along to drink and fight. It's not so much the case nowadays with all the king hits and filming beatings on smartphones but kiwis back then had much more of a code of conduct in terms of a scrap but in Britain glass bottles, knives, bricks or whatever were fair game. I'd imagine being a cafÃ© owner in France or Germany during that period when the various "firms' invaded the country to "support" their team would have been absolutely nightmarish. I can't think of more of a truism than Rugby being the thugs game played by Gentlemen whereas football is the Gentlemans game played by thugs....
 
Slightly off topic but I guess the point I'm making is that for outsiders it would have been so easy to blame this whole thing on the hooligan element.

gt12

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="577538" data-time="1462569459">I'm not implying anything. I genuinely want to know - I've tried searching. But it is generally mentioned that the police primarily blamed a rush on the gates for the the disaster - and subsequently failings by them seemed to play more of a factor. But I'm not sure whether that means no unticketed patrons rushed (and the police were lying), or they did but all the other factors got the focus. 
I would think if you entered that area without a ticket you certainly contributed to what occurred, no?</blockquote>
 
Have you seen <a class="bbc_url" href="http://espn.go.com/30for30/film?page=hillsborough">http://espn.go.com/30for30/film?page=hillsborough</a> 
Rotated? 
I'm pretty sure it devotes plenty of time to the gate and discusses the problems that influenced the rush (been a while since I've seen it though, so might need to watch again). 
I'm pretty sure it's on YouTube and definitely solar movie or other such sites.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="577534" data-time="1462566538">
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Just ignore that red herring. It would only be relevant if ALL the fans that rushed in were without tickets and even then it doesn't really matter unless you are implying that the crush outside was a deliberate tactic to force that gates to open. 
I have kept away from commenting again here because of the obvious situation where my original comment having some small feeling still of the fans contributing to what went down being taken in every way except how I intended it. 
I do want to dis- associate my views with those of Richie. 
As I explained, my view was based on my experiences at the time and just how frightening crowd behaviour was in those days. I am not a football fan and have no allegiance to any team. I don't really care whether the fans were from Liverpool or Mars. 
My views are obviously at odds to those of others, and probably the best example is the post that says that the fans at Heysel weren't responsible for the fighting, the stadia/ crowd control was. 
I understand where that view comes from but to me a stadia doesn't make humans fight it only triggers the bad behaviour. Just as poor gate strategy doesn't make people push and shove like cornered animals but it does create the right environment for that to happen. 
My original "feeling" still stands that mob like behaviour (which was quite normal in those times at football games) was an undeniable part of what happened and in some small part contributed. 
PS: this comment applies to those outside the ground NOT the victims inside.
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Good post mate. I see the point you're making (in bold), the view re Heysel though is that the need for the Liverpool fans to tear down the fencing to get out of the sardine can they were shunted into triggered the fighting. Was that the Italian fans trying to stop them or fearing a hostile invasion by the Liverpool fans? I don't know and this is my point. Yes there was fighting between the two sets of fans, yes this was triggered by the Liverpool fans tearing down the fences but the how and why of the fighting starting is far from clear. Poor behaviour or fear? Intent or reaction? No-one knows but what we do know is that without the situation forced upon the Liverpool supporters this situation was a lot less likely to occur.

Rancid Schnitzel

Didn't they keep playing even after the stand collapsed? Insane.

da_grubster

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="577615" data-time="1462606047">Didn't they keep playing even after the stand collapsed? Insane.</blockquote>
 
Yes the game went ahead. Jive won 1-0 with a Michael platini penalty. 
It is crazy. 
There is a lot of fan accounts on the web of what happened in Heysel. Mainly Liverpool fans. Fascinating but grim reading

da_grubster

Rancid, sorry this all happened before the game started. 
both captains had to appeal to their sets of fans to stop fighting. 
39 dead and 600 injured. 
And still the game went ahead. I believe kickoff was after 9pm. 
14 people were convicted of manslaughter as well as 3 Belgian officials. 
Dark days

Rancid Schnitzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="da_grubster" data-cid="577788" data-time="1462612858">
Rancid, sorry this all happened before the game started. 
both captains had to appeal to their sets of fans to stop fighting. 
39 dead and 600 injured. 
And still the game went ahead. I believe kickoff was after 9pm. 
14 people were convicted of manslaughter as well as 3 Belgian officials. 
Dark days</blockquote>
 
Jesus. 
How the hell could they play the game after something like that? Imagine being a player and trying to concentrate with dozens of dead and dying people just metres away. Fark me.

SidBarret

I would hate to come down on the same side of the debate, but...
 
My knowledge of the time in English football is solely based on what I've read, so I might be mistaken, but to ignore the culture around football at the time would disingenuous. As much as the original inquest erred in limiting the itself to event up to 15:15 (?), I feel people erring by limited their comments to event of that day (15 April?).
 
Reading the reports of what happened, it seems that the police was set up to avoid another Heysel and failed to deal with what was actually happening. 
 
Hell even the stadium was set up that way. Without the fencing and the pens the tragedy would never have occurred. 
 
So what does that mean about the culpability of the fans at the stadium (or Liverpool fans for that matter)? Nothing really but football fans as group should have taken a step back and asked themselves about what supporting your team has become. Penned in, segregated from opposing fans and herded around to avoid "trouble" is a normal idea of a good time.

ACT Crusader

Hey sidbarrett, welcome back mate.

SidBarret

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="577843" data-time="1462627133">
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Hey sidbarrett, welcome back mate.
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Thanks mate
 
Never really left, was just quietly sitting in the corner of the virtual pub, aka lurking.
 
 
 
One more thing to on the topic - for all those people talking about the crowed pushing forward and therefor being to blame - consider the following, you have 3000 people all "pushing" forward with a 100 newton worth of force. Now a hundred newton sounds a big number it really isn't (about 10kg of force). If one person pushes with that force you would hardly notice it, but multiplying it with 3000 you suddenly get 30 tons pressing again the front barrier - you can also add the force of the crowed simply trying to keep their balance on the terrace. But only taking the 30 ton spread over 30 meters you end up with 1 ton per meter of fencing. That is like parking a small car on each of the people on the front of the crowd. Big crowds are scary things.

jegga

Read the warning at the start, I still can't spoiler properly. <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm'>https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/3pcvfb/saudi_arabia_hajj_disaster_death_toll_at_least/cw5vxtm</a>
 
 
 
 
 
 
I actually happen to have done a slightly creepy amount of research into the phenomenon of 'crowd crush' and 'crowd collapse' recently, and can probably shed some light here. First I'll say these are not stampedes, but some background info is needed. IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER NOT READING THIS.
Basically when people start to move in very high density crowds, each individual physically doesn't have enough space around them to behave like a normal person who acts based on decisions anymore, but rather the entire crowd starts moving like a fluid, forced forward by the pressure of the people walking forwards behind them. We're talking densities of 5+ people per square meter (you can roughly equate 4 people per square meter to being in a tightly packed crowd but still being able to move 360 degrees, just brushing up on people on all 4 sides. At about <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='

'>shockwaves</a> that ripple up and back through the mass of people when a push comes from any given direction... anyone who's been in a moshpit knows what I'm talking about.
These crowd densities aren't dangerous in themselves until you start reaching more than 8+ people/meter2 , however<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.gkstill.com/_Media/density.m4v'>starting at about 5-6 they become extremely risky</a> to facilitate movement in for two major reasons: 1) the risk of hitting a choke point and 2) the risk of someone falling over.
The first one results in what is called 'crowd crush'. This is where you have an extremely large and high density crowd, typical for those seen at events like the Hajj, moving in one direction in a confined space. This can be as wide as a city block or as narrow as a hallway. The crowd will be moving in its desired direction, but as soon as it hits achoke point, such as a blocked entrance, a sharp turn, a single open doorway, or even another high density crowd coming from the opposite direction, the people at the front face a serious problem. They are not merely walking anymore, they are being carried in the crowd fluid and could not stop if they tried (and would probably fall over). Survivors of crushes have described the experience like you're being carried by a river of people. The people at thevery front of the crowd (who are not at dangerous densities) will make it through the choke point, unless it's a blocked entrance of course, but the high density crowd inevitably follows, carried by force. If the choke point is too narrow for the entire crowd to fit through, people literally just plug it up and are unable to squeeze through the gap anymore, and are being evermore crushed by the force of people behind them. For a morbid but good example of this, watch the video of <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='

'>the Station Nightclub fire that happened in <del>2001</del> 2003</a> (NSFW/NSFL). For those who don't want to watch, basically what happened is a fire broke out in a nightclub, and nobody really bothered to run for the emergency exits (plus some other things but another post entirely) but instead all pushed for the front door. When the crowd density trying to leave the club out of the double doors became too great, the people got stuck and knocked over in the doorway, and bodies kept piling on top of more bodies from the flow of people behind until there was a helpless 6ft high pile of people with their heads and arms sticking out the front door packed too tightly for anyone on the outside to wedge them free.
Here's the fucked up part though: people do not die from being 'trampled' as if everyone is wildly running around and stepping on each other, in fact there's literally no way that's possible because people couldn't be running around in high density crowds even if they wanted to. What they die from is compressive asphyxiation (yes, suffocation by crushing) from the sheer force of all of the weight of bodies being stacked on top of them. In the worst of choke points, a completely blocked exit, people can be crushed standing up because they breathe out and simply cannot overcome the pressure of all of the people around them to breathe back in. That happens at densities of about 12+ p/sqm. 'Crowd pressure' has been known to collapse walls, bend steel guard rails, and of course kill a shitload of people.
The next scenario, and in my opinion the much more horrifying one, is crowd collapse. This happens when a high density crowd is moving and someone falls over. If you can imagine yourself in a fluid-like crowd, the pressure of the person behind you pushes you forward, and in turn you exert the pressure on the person in front of you, facilitating the crowd's (the fluid's) movement. If suddenly the person in front of you falls, they are no longer there for you to 'lean on' (to exert pressure on to), and guess what? You fall too. And the person behind you. And the person behind them, and anyone who tries to help someone else up, all just being pushed against their will into the new wall of bodies in front of them. The crowd collapses behind the original hole. Aaaaand now you have a choke point, just made of bodies. Surprisingly even here the main cause of death is almost always compressive asphyxia rather than trampling, as the pressure just gets too great when you have 2000lb of flesh on top of you. The crowd doesn't even have to be moving very fast for this to happen (or even can be stationary in the case of <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.gkstill.com/_Media/animation7.mp4'>a grandstand collapse</a> ), and is especially dangerous when the people are moving down a steep or slippery slope.
Here's the kicker: in both of these scenarios the death tolls are so high because the people in the back of the crowd, propagating the crowd force, are almost always too far away to know what's going on at the crush point. These sorts of crowds are extremely noisy and essentially impossible to stick your head up and over to get a better view, this combined with the fact that the back of crowds are usually at safe densities and people have no reason to panic and just keep walking means that the people at the front have no choice but to be crushed. Or in the case of a fire, where people sometimes are aware of what's happening in the front, they will simply keep pushing because it's either that or wait to die, worsening the crush at the front. Hundreds upon hundreds of people can be screaming for help and for people to stop or turn back... the ones who can hear them are already too stuck in the flow to do anything, and the ones who can do something can't hear.
So now the Hajj. This annual event is basically something any Muslim (who is able) has to do in their lifetime, and involves traveling to Mecca and surrounding areas over the span of four days to perform some religious rituals and visitations etc. The super short timespan of this event and the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://imgur.com/2hZglhw'>insane amount of people it draws</a> means there's a huge amount of high density crowd movement, and one of the most notorious areas is a city called Mina, by which a particular ritual called the Stoning of the Devil is performed. Basically people need to throw rocks at a particular set of pillars, and so as you can imagine there's a giant potential for dangerously packed crowds when you have to move so many people to such a small location. This particular one happened when one road was closed in Mina and people didn't follow the detour or something (the news isn't very reliable because these events become so political for some reason), and basically two extreme density crowds coming from opposite directions collided in a single intersection, causing the pileup you're reading about above. There was also extreme heat on that day; you'll get people dropping like flies once densities start to get crush-worthy. There has been a crush or a collapse at the Hajj that's killed hundreds of people roughly every two years for the past couple of decades.
In fact, the global rate of crushes has increased exponentially in the past ~50 years or so as cities have become dense and urbanization is commonplace, this is a real problem that you may encounter in your own lifetime. If you do realize you're in a crowd that's heading towards a crush, unfortunately it probably means it's too late for you at that point. However, if you're actually serious about avoiding one of the most horrible deaths you could imagine, whenever you start to notice you're in a crowd that is reaching dangerous densities (4+) and is starting to behave like a fluid, you can work to get out of it. The key is the shockwaves you'll feel travel through everyone as the pressure pushing y'all starts to outpace how fast you can physically move. These are the sorts of crowds that if someone steps on your foot you'll probably lose your shoe because your foot will simply be carried out of it by the movement of the crowd. When you feel a shockwave, absolutely do not fight it. That's one of the quickest ways to fall over. What you should instead do is let it carry you wherever it needs to, and then immediately start moving sideways, and diagonally backwards if that's possible, avoid falling over at all costs though. You simply want to GET OUT of that crowd at that point (even if it's headed somewhere you needed to be) however possible. People may start dying. And you may be one of them.
EDIT: If you do every find yourself in the worst-case scenario and are knocked over, attempt to fall in a rigid fetal position (arms over your face and chest) to attempt to make room for your lungs to breathe. One man <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='

'>survived the Station Fire</a> (NSFW/NSFL) by doing this and having a small supply of fresh air, protected from the fire by a man-made heat shield.

The Silver Fern

Hillsborough