Hillsborough
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What's wrong with that?
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="577417" data-time="1462521145">
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<p>As a recollection, Liverpool fans in the 80's were not excessively involved in rampant hooliganism.</p>
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<p>You lost me there. </p>
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<p>Did you know the park next to Anfield was referred to as Stanley Knife Park? Did you know they targeted black members of the opposing firm, stripped them and beat them?</p>
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<p>Yeah, not hooligans at all.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="577434" data-time="1462523470">
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<p>I was assuming that kind of behaviour would suggest he was drunk , but its only about 5:30 in Melbourne isn't it?</p>
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<p>Yep, the sort of response I expect when it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="577440" data-time="1462523922">
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<p>What's wrong with that?</p>
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<p>Not much I guess except when you start posting drivel , I'll revisit this thread when he's at the "your my best mate" stage, he might be mildly amusing by then.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577444" data-time="1462524054">
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<p>You lost me there. </p>
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<p>Did you know the park next to Anfield was referred to as Stanley Knife Park? Did you know they targeted black members of the opposing firm, stripped them and beat them?</p>
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<p>Yeah, not hooligans at all.</p>
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<p>There are many anecdotal incidences that can be brought out that actually prove nothing. The alledged targeting of black people does not surprise me. It was Britain in the 1980s, racism was everywhere, as was sensationalism. Any such action was not confined to Liverpool supporters in any event. I notice though that you do not address my actual points which were that Liverpool are not overly known for their hooliganism and that much of it was perpetrated by travelling fans in Europe. Have a look at any major incidents involving Liverpool fans in the 1980s and then come back and tell me I'm wrong. If so I will gladly eat humble pie.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="577456" data-time="1462525190">
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<p>There are many anecdotal incidences that can be brought out that actually prove nothing. The alledged targeting of black people does not surprise me. It was Britain in the 1980s, racism was everywhere, as was sensationalism. Any such action was not confined to Liverpool supporters in any event. I notice though that you do not address my actual points which were that Liverpool are not overly known for their hooliganism and that much of it was perpetrated by travelling fans in Europe. Have a look at any major incidents involving Liverpool fans in the 1980s and then come back and tell me I'm wrong. If so I will gladly eat humble pie.</p>
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<p>Are you actually serious?</p>
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<p>Do you know why English clubs were banned from Europe? Hint: Liverpool</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577459" data-time="1462525301">
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<p>Are you actually serious?</p>
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<p>Do you know why English clubs were banned from Europe? Hint: Liverpool</p>
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<p>doesnt that back up his pooint that it was their travelling fans more so than those at home?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="577462" data-time="1462525386">
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<p>doesnt that back up his pooint that it was their travelling fans more so than those at home?</p>
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<p>What? Is that Scouser English?</p>
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<p>It backs up the point that it was Liverpool fans.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577459" data-time="1462525301">
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<p>Are you actually serious?</p>
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<p>Do you know why English clubs were banned from Europe? Hint: Liverpool</p>
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<p>One wonders if you're trolling. If it was just Liverpool that was the problem, then they'd be the only team banned from Europe. Even a learning disabled child would understand that.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577464" data-time="1462525511">
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<p>What? Is that Scouser English?</p>
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<p>It backs up the point that it was Liverpool fans.</p>
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<p>fuck mate, I think you are drunk! </p>
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<p>Back to your Miami Wine cooler! </p> -
<p>As someone who grew up in England in the 70s and 80s my recollections are that there was definitely a hooligan problem but Liverpool fans were pretty decent compared to other fans. You have to remember the Heysel tragedy was caused by stuffing the fans into an ill-equipped stadium. </p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577459" data-time="1462525301">
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<p>Are you actually serious?</p>
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<p>Do you know why English clubs were banned from Europe? Hint: Liverpool</p>
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<p>Whilst that is undeniably true, I would have thought that everything that has come out of the Hillsborough tragedy would give you pause for thought before following the party line about blame. To save you having to go back and read the relevant point in my post I will copy it here:-</p>
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<p><strong><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">The Heysel disaster was a stand out of course but there are two elements in that that need to be taken into account. Firstly most of Liverpool's hooligan issues were on away trips in Europe. The pattern you allude to was mostly opportunistic travelling hooligans that were not usually evident away from such games. Secondly although it was the Liverpool fans that pulled down the fences at Heysel, this was because they were getting crushed in a very small area where too many had been crammed in. The tearing down of the fences triggered the fighting between the fans which in turn led to a wall collapsing in the dilapidated stadium. Whilst it is true to say the behaviour of the fans contributed to the tragedy the common link between here and Hillsborough is two-fold. A poorly maintained, out of date stadium and poor crowd control/policing.</span></strong></p>
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<p>The Liverpool fans did not go on an orgy of violence killing Italian fans. A wall in a substandard, dilapidated stadium collapsed killing those fans. For sure the fighting between the fans caused the wall to fall, but the fighting itself was caused in the main by the poor crowd control, cramming the Liverpool supporters into an area far too small for the numbers.</p>
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<p>Just take a moment to think about this. It is the European Cup Final. The biggest game of the year for European club soccer. The choice of stadium and the method of policing of the crowd ought to match the sheer scale of the game. It did not go anywhere near that. No real blame and certainly no culpability was laid at the door of EUEFA, all that happened was that ever so quietly they had a good look at stadia suitability and policing. Meanwhile, lay the blame demonstrably at a conveniently easy target which is partly credible.</p>
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<p>Please feel free to refute my views, I'll be happy to hear something new on this subject.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="alexnicholas" data-cid="577496" data-time="1462529833">
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<p>As someone who grew up in England in the 70s and 80s my recollections are that there was definitely a hooligan problem but Liverpool fans were pretty decent compared to other fans. You have to remember the Heysel tragedy was caused by stuffing the fans into an ill-equipped stadium. </p>
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<p>What he said.</p> -
Yes. The teams with bad reps for hooliganism at the time were the likes of Milwall, West Ham, Leeds and Chelsea. Not Liverpool. <br><br>
As mentioned by Cato may stadia were ill equipped at the time and given that fans were generally treated like animals (and often behaved that way) it was a tragedy waiting to happen.<br><br>
Then there was the appalling cover up afterwards. I think there was a general dislike of Liverpool by the Sun, the police and especially government at the time - who all colluded in the cluster-fuck that was to follow. If the tragedy had happened in London I think we would have got to the truth a lot sooner. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577382" data-time="1462514426"><p>Why do you think they are unrelated? Police reacted to a pattern of behaviour which was particularly poor from one football club.<br>
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The cover ups and lies in the aftermatch by the police are unforgivable. They deserve to be vilified. But saying they are unrelated events is extremely ignorant.<br></p></blockquote>
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You are talking about a game that happened in 1985 as opposed to a game that happened in 1989, in different countries. How are they related?<br><br>
Heysel will always be the lowest point for LFC, but every club suffered with violence at this time. Not just Liverpool. In fact, Liverpool wasn't renowned for hooloiganism.<br><br>
Justice for Heysel happened with a number of people imprisoned. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Richie8-7" data-cid="577447" data-time="1462524217"><p>I understand the delusion of people who buy into the typical Liverpool, woe is me narrative. Talk to the supporters OF ANY OTHER CLUB who are older than 40, and you'll hear exactly what I'm telling you.</p></blockquote>
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This delusion you talk about has affected you in the exact opposite way. Couldn't give two shits if you hate Liverpool. Most people that do are generally United fans. <br><br>
You trolling effort on the back of this week is very poor. Your ignorant views are regurgitated bullshit -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="577525" data-time="1462551027"><p>Genuine question - was it established if there was a rush of patrons without tickets that entered the ground and to what degree?</p></blockquote>
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Just ignore that red herring. It would only be relevant if ALL the fans that rushed in were without tickets and even then it doesn't really matter unless you are implying that the crush outside was a deliberate tactic to force that gates to open. <br><br>
I have kept away from commenting again here because of the obvious situation where my original comment having some small feeling still of the fans contributing to what went down being taken in every way except how I intended it. <br><br>
I do want to dis- associate my views with those of Richie. <br><br>
As I explained, my view was based on my experiences at the time and just how frightening crowd behaviour was in those days. I am not a football fan and have no allegiance to any team. I don't really care whether the fans were from Liverpool or Mars. <br><br>
My views are obviously at odds to those of others, and probably the best example is the post that says that the fans at Heysel weren't responsible for the fighting, the stadia/ crowd control was. <br>
I understand where that view comes from but to me a stadia doesn't make humans fight it only triggers the bad behaviour. Just as poor gate strategy doesn't make people push and shove like cornered animals but it does create the right environment for that to happen. <br><br>
My original "feeling" still stands that mob like behaviour (which was quite normal in those times at football games) was an undeniable part of what happened and in some small part contributed. <br><br>
PS: this comment applies to those outside the ground NOT the victims inside.
