Openside flankers
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Interestingly, on Barry, I had in mind that he was mainly a 6 - but, his AB profile says....
Barry, though tall and rangy and not as closely built to the ground as some other specialists such as his contemporary Josh Kronfeld, played for much of his career as an openside flanker.
And a quick glance indicates he played all but one of his AB games as a 7.
But, he was apparently 1.94 metres tall, which you'd have thought would have seen him instantly on the blindside - especially in those days.
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@chimoaus said in Openside flankers:
Bugger missed the quiz, great list and I appreciate the time putting it together, would be great to get another quiz/thread going for another position perhaps.
I’m pretty sure I’ve done the research on the last 30 ABs to play hooker. I’ll try and dig it up.
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@chris-b said in Openside flankers:
Interestingly, on Barry, I had in mind that he was mainly a 6 - but, his AB profile says....
Barry, though tall and rangy and not as closely built to the ground as some other specialists such as his contemporary Josh Kronfeld, played for much of his career as an openside flanker.
And a quick glance indicates he played all but one of his AB games as a 7.
But, he was apparently 1.94 metres tall, which you'd have thought would have seen him instantly on the blindside - especially in those days.
Well, according to you everyone was a midget back then
My only memory of Liam Barry was on the news being interviewed cos he Dad and Granddad were All Blacks. No pressure on any kids he may have had then !
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Doing a little bit of research of guys who pre-date my rugby watching - I think Graham Williams might have been our first genuine openside flanker. It would be interesting to know whether they set up as blindside and openside with him (or others).
After him, they went back to pairs of bigger tight pairings for a couple of years with Kirkpatrick paired with people like Tom Lister and Grizz.
Then Alan McNaughton is actually listed as an openside - but in his three tests played in 6 twice and 7 once - maybe indicating that the players knew what they were doing, but not the guys handing out the jerseys. They picked him for three 1971 Lions tests hoping his speed off the back of the lineout would pressure Barry John.
A bit later, it seems Alistair Scown was probably pretty mobile, but still pretty big - probably a proper openside.
And then Ken Stewart.
Other opensides not yet mentioned (I think), Geoff Hines and Stu Cron.
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@chris-b said in Openside flankers:
@dogmeat I should get those right actually, because 1970 was the first series I started paying attention.
So, you curmudgeonly old bugger - when did we first switch from left and right flankers?
I’m not as old as you, but growing up my dad always referred to them as breakaway
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@act-crusader I think Terry Mclean called them breakaways in his books in the 1950s, but by the 1960s they were flankers.
I can still remember people calling them breakaways.
I just found this quote from McLean from the 1963/64 tour - which is probably where my OP originated from....(he was talking about the trio of Tremain, Nathan and Graham being slightly unbalanced - none of them proper number 8s).
"Perhaps the answer might have been the adoption of the British concept of openside and blindside specialists. The "Egghead Committee" believed that this was sound and I had a notion that they would have liked to adopt it. ....The prime insoluble difficulty was that Graham had packed for so long on the one shoulder that he could not adjust to the other. In effect this put the kybosh on the adoption of the British concept, for it was unthinkable that Graham should be stood down."
But, he does say that, "France B fought so staunchly and well in the second half that after a time Whineray posted Nathan to the open flank , from which his strenuous running soon began to wreak panic-station defence among the Frenchmen". That sounds like an offensive rather than defensive ploy - and Graham was probably more the guy who played what we'd mostly recognise as the openside role among that trio - but, that's me quibbling.
In 1964, Australia toured - Graham played No. 8 in the 3 tests and a guy called Don Clarke was paired with Tremain - so he's a candidate, as well. As is Red Conway in 1965.
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@act-crusader I think breakaway originally goes back to the old NZ scrum formation outlawed in the 30's?
@Chris-B I didn't know we ever played left and right, just that we didn't consistently have a real fetcher until the 70's.
Graham Williams was definitely renowned for following the ball so I guess he fits your definition. Thing is though rugby was a tighter game in the main back in the pre-80's so I don't think you needed the fast mobile far ranging #7 to the same extent. Waka Nathan certainly got out wide though.
Williams was 'looser' than Tom Lister who succeeded him. They are the first two flankers I can remember. Williams from TV coverage of the 67 tour when the AB's defintely played an expansive game and Lister from the 69/70 tests.
Alan McNaughtomn was a supposed speedster and was chosen for this reason for the first three tests against the Lions in 71 to get to Barry John but he failed and Lister was brought back.
Then you move into the Ken stewart, Kevin Eveleigh, Mourie era. Guys that are recognisable modern 7's albeit midgets....
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@dogmeat Yeah - in his 1967 book, McLean specifically refers to Graham Williams playing as an openside for Wellington, but then says he was competing with Nathan for the "loose-running role" with the All Blacks. So even that is a bit inconclusive as to whether he packed down as a genuine openside. (Edit: I think that's my definition - the first guy to consistently pack the scrum on the openside).
I can only vaguely remember Williams playing for Wellington in later years.
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I was browsing through some of my other rugby programmes and came across this. The schoolboy game was the curtain-raiser to the ABs vs SA test at Eden Park in 1997, Fitzy's 50th test as captain.
There is that man again - Rangi Vallance.
While there are some familiar names there, including Flutey at halfback, many won't be that well-known to any of us. The same for the Welsh team. @MiketheSnow
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@bovidae said in Openside flankers:
I was browsing through some of my other rugby programmes and came across this. The schoolboy game was the curtain-raiser to the ABs vs SA test at Eden Park in 1997, Fitzy's 50th test as captain.
There is that man again - Rangi Vallance.
While there are some familiar names there, including Flutey at halfback, many won't be that well-known to any of us. The same for the Welsh team. @MiketheSnow
Off the top of my head only Williams at 15 and Cooper at 9 had senior caps
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@mikethesnow Yeah, those are the two names I was familiar with. Duncan Jones is in the squad too.
