Poll: Foster reappointment
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@nzzp said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@dan54 you'd have to ask why prime candidates don't apply... It's more than timing I'm sure
Well I thought the prime candidates that were available did apply (Foster and Razor). When Joseph and Rennie were offered jobs at beginning or year (a good 6 months before AB job was advertised) did you really think they would say no thanks, I will wait and take my chances later in year? Don't forget there was one job , and even if you discounted Foster, either Joseph (my choice) Rennie or Razor was going to miss out. I have been on rugby boards where we have appointed coaches (admittedly at club, and provincial level not international), and you know what, in most cases there were accusations of bias and already had coach picked etc, funnily by people who usually were associated with losing applicant etc. And seldom by people who were actually involved in process.
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@bovidae said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@nzzp said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
depends - does he think Bridge is one of our premier wingers or not?
If Robertson was the AB coach do you seriously think he wouldn't have selected Bridge in his squad? And he would have picked Bridge ahead of Clarke last year too.
The problem with having a coach going straight from a Super/provincial team to coach the ABs is that they tend to revert to selecting the players they know and are most familiar with. We saw that with Mains and Thorburn in the early 1990s and Mitchell and Deans with the Cantablacks.
The interesting thing about the Cantablacks was that pre- that selection the Fern's voting ended up pretty much spot on the Cantablacks, as well!
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@chris-b said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@bovidae said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@nzzp said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
depends - does he think Bridge is one of our premier wingers or not?
If Robertson was the AB coach do you seriously think he wouldn't have selected Bridge in his squad? And he would have picked Bridge ahead of Clarke last year too.
The problem with having a coach going straight from a Super/provincial team to coach the ABs is that they tend to revert to selecting the players they know and are most familiar with. We saw that with Mains and Thorburn in the early 1990s and Mitchell and Deans with the Cantablacks.
The interesting thing about the Cantablacks was that pre- that selection the Fern's voting ended up pretty much spot on the Cantablacks, as well!
those boys were pretty dominant... and then combinations come into play.
Kinda like Auckland + a few in the 80s/early 90s
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@voodoo said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
Can't see why you'd exclude him from the process? May as well let him pitch. Unless it meant tying up assistants from aligning with others I guess.
That pretty much shows the stupidity of having pre-assembled coaching teams apply. Something that harks back to the Henry-Deans contest....
Just appoint the Head Coach and then work together to pick the assistants.
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@dan54 said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@nzzp said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@dan54 you'd have to ask why prime candidates don't apply... It's more than timing I'm sure
Well I thought the prime candidates that were available did apply (Foster and Razor). When Joseph and Rennie were offered jobs at beginning or year (a good 6 months before AB job was advertised) did you really think they would say no thanks, I will wait and take my chances later in year? Don't forget there was one job , and even if you discounted Foster, either Joseph (my choice) Rennie or Razor was going to miss out. I have been on rugby boards where we have appointed coaches (admittedly at club, and provincial level not international), and you know what, in most cases there were accusations of bias and already had coach picked etc, funnily by people who usually were associated with losing applicant etc. And seldom by people who were actually involved in process.
Well said. I have had similar experiences at a higher level, some very nasty indeed. Can't believe a lot of the accusations and inferences posted here on this topic. But, people will just think what they are predisposed to if it doesn't go their way, usually missing a whole lot of actual factors in the decision, process and selection.
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@arhs @dan54 I think a lot of it is that the AB job is arguably the apex coaching role in world rugby.
Historically, no one else has the depth of talent to work with, or the interesting schedules. If you're a kiwi, it's like being an All Black - the pinnacle of the sport.
So, given that, the question is why you'd take a role with Japan. It's like Piutau or Hayman going overseas for the coin before they were All Blacks. It's legit - but a bit of a cop out.
There has been a lot of media about Foster and the desire of Hansen to see him appointed. The process was a shambles, and there is a bit of ret-conning going on in this thread. Rennie wasn't appointed until 20 November 2019, for instance. Joseph on 18 November 2019.
Jamie Joseph to continue as Japan coach through 2023
Jamie Joseph is out of the running to coach the All Blacks after he inked a new deal to remain in charge of Japan through to the end of the 2023 Rugby World Cup.
Dave Rennie appointed Qantas Wallabies Head Coach
Rugby Australia has today announced the appointment of Dave Rennie as Head Coach of the Qantas Wallabies
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as a player being a all black increases your value hence why most people give this a good crack before heading overseas.
if rennie/ joseph applied for ABs job and missed out what would they had been left with. third pickings japan and aussie would have appointed coaches. would have cost them hugely. some people would have taken that risk but im picking not many. and theirs nothing stopping them applying in future with a better CV.
my biggest gripe was that off the two who applied was that both had a rather weak /unproven assistants with them -
@ploughboy said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
as a player being a all black increases your value hence why most people give this a good crack before heading overseas.
if rennie/ joseph applied for ABs job and missed out what would they had been left with. third pickings japan and aussie would have appointed coaches. would have cost them hugely. some people would have taken that risk but im picking not many. and theirs nothing stopping them applying in future with a better CV.
my biggest gripe was that off the two who applied was that both had a rather weak /unproven assistants with themWell, Dave Rennie can get fucked either way then. To do that and be in line for the job in the future, he would literally have to win the Bledisloe for Australia. I don't see him ever being the AB head coach.
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I just don't think you can deny Robertson's consistency in success. Five consecutive SR titles is unprecedented (and they were also unbeaten in their run for a sixth). That shows a knack for making the right call at the right time, in both selectorial and coaching decisions. It also helps that he appears to genuinely relate to the players better than I think the older generation of coaches do.
And for those that talk about the wealth of talent at Robertson's disposal and the front office etc: Blackadder won 0 titles in 8 years.
Not to hark on about Foster's record but he is obviously (partly) accountable for the 2017 lions series and the 2019 world cup. And a 50/50 record in 2020 is straight up poor. I think the ABs have to go unbeaten to finish the year as the #1 team and I think that would be enough to prove he should keep the reins. If not though I think Robertson/Brown should be appointed from '22 onwards.
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@frye said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
I just don't think you can deny Robertson's consistency in success. Five consecutive SR titles is unprecedented (and they were also unbeaten in their run for a sixth). That shows a knack for making the right call at the right time, in both selectorial and coaching decisions. It also helps that he appears to genuinely relate to the players better than I think the older generation of coaches do.
And for those that talk about the wealth of talent at Robertson's disposal and the front office etc: Blackadder won 0 titles in 8 years.
Not to hark on about Foster's record but he is obviously (partly) accountable for the 2017 lions series and the 2019 world cup. And a 50/50 record in 2020 is straight up poor. I think the ABs have to go unbeaten to finish the year as the #1 team and I think that would be enough to prove he should keep the reins. If not though I think Robertson/Brown should be appointed from '22 onwards.
I don't disagree with your main point, but one small point is that during that time Blackadder's ABs almost always showed up to AB games ready to contribute and play really well. In comparison, Robertson works the fuck out of a few key human resources (Whitelock, Taylor especially) during Super to the point where they looked tired by the time AB games roll around.
Edit: BTW, you won't get Robertson and Brown.
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@frye i think there are a lot of factorsstill in the Crusaders favour that slightly skew the number of titles.
But
Having talent and depth but getting the best out of it is what being the AB coach is all about.
However, for all the talk of the head coach, at test level i am more convinced than ever that the quality of the assistant coaches has more to do with the overall success of the team than just the HC.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@frye i think there are a lot of factorsstill in the Crusaders favour that slightly skew the number of titles.
But
Having talent and depth but getting the best out of it is what being the AB coach is all about.
However, for all the talk of the head coach, at test level i am more convinced than ever that the quality of the assistant coaches has more to do with the overall success of the team than just the HC.
We bang on about him all the time, but you need at least one truly world class great strategy person in it (Smith). On attack, it does make sense for that to be Brown, but who it would be for defense, I'm not sure. I think Ryan showed that he may have the goods with the forwards, given his recent work with Fiji.
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@gt12 said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@frye said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
I just don't think you can deny Robertson's consistency in success. Five consecutive SR titles is unprecedented (and they were also unbeaten in their run for a sixth). That shows a knack for making the right call at the right time, in both selectorial and coaching decisions. It also helps that he appears to genuinely relate to the players better than I think the older generation of coaches do.
And for those that talk about the wealth of talent at Robertson's disposal and the front office etc: Blackadder won 0 titles in 8 years.
Not to hark on about Foster's record but he is obviously (partly) accountable for the 2017 lions series and the 2019 world cup. And a 50/50 record in 2020 is straight up poor. I think the ABs have to go unbeaten to finish the year as the #1 team and I think that would be enough to prove he should keep the reins. If not though I think Robertson/Brown should be appointed from '22 onwards.
I don't disagree with your main point, but one small point is that during that time Blackadder's ABs almost always showed up to AG hames ready to contribute and play really well. In comparison, Robertson works the fuck out of a few key human resources (Whitelock, Taylor especially) during Super to the point where they looked tired by the time AB games roll around.
Edit: BTW, you won't get Robertson and Brown.
Sure, but Robertson is working within the player welfare guidelines as outlined by the NZRU. I don't think has a duty to rest players any more than they need to be.
Why not Robertson with Brown as an assistant? Brown is still contracted to the NZRU in 2022.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@frye i think there are a lot of factorsstill in the Crusaders favour that slightly skew the number of titles.
But
Having talent and depth but getting the best out of it is what being the AB coach is all about.
However, for all the talk of the head coach, at test level i am more convinced than ever that the quality of the assistant coaches has more to do with the overall success of the team than just the HC.
To pick up on this again, I wonder how people would feel right now if we had Foster as Head, with Robertson and Brown on the team? To your point, I’m sure we’d feel much better about the potential for growth.
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@frye said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@gt12 said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@frye said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
I just don't think you can deny Robertson's consistency in success. Five consecutive SR titles is unprecedented (and they were also unbeaten in their run for a sixth). That shows a knack for making the right call at the right time, in both selectorial and coaching decisions. It also helps that he appears to genuinely relate to the players better than I think the older generation of coaches do.
And for those that talk about the wealth of talent at Robertson's disposal and the front office etc: Blackadder won 0 titles in 8 years.
Not to hark on about Foster's record but he is obviously (partly) accountable for the 2017 lions series and the 2019 world cup. And a 50/50 record in 2020 is straight up poor. I think the ABs have to go unbeaten to finish the year as the #1 team and I think that would be enough to prove he should keep the reins. If not though I think Robertson/Brown should be appointed from '22 onwards.
I don't disagree with your main point, but one small point is that during that time Blackadder's ABs almost always showed up to AG hames ready to contribute and play really well. In comparison, Robertson works the fuck out of a few key human resources (Whitelock, Taylor especially) during Super to the point where they looked tired by the time AB games roll around.
Edit: BTW, you won't get Robertson and Brown.
Sure, but Robertson is working within the player welfare guidelines as outlined by the NZRU. I don't think has a duty to rest players any more than they need to be.
Why not Robertson with Brown as an assistant? Brown is still contracted to the NZRU in 2022.
Because Brown is not contracted by the NZRU: he has a unique status of working for Japan (contracted until 2023, according to ODT), and a highlanders contract.
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@nzzp said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
There has been a lot of media about Foster and the desire of Hansen to see him appointed. The process was a shambles, and there is a bit of ret-conning going on in this thread. Rennie wasn't appointed until 20 November 2019, for instance. Joseph on 18 November 2019.
Rennie was already in talks with Castle and RA well before the RWC started. Castle said they started discussions 6 months before he was announced as Wallaby coach.
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@nzzp said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
@arhs @dan54 I think a lot of it is that the AB job is arguably the apex coaching role in world rugby.
Historically, no one else has the depth of talent to work with, or the interesting schedules. If you're a kiwi, it's like being an All Black - the pinnacle of the sport.
So, given that, the question is why you'd take a role with Japan. It's like Piutau or Hayman going overseas for the coin before they were All Blacks. It's legit - but a bit of a cop out.
There has been a lot of media about Foster and the desire of Hansen to see him appointed. The process was a shambles, and there is a bit of ret-conning going on in this thread. Rennie wasn't appointed until 20 November 2019, for instance. Joseph on 18 November 2019.
Jamie Joseph to continue as Japan coach through 2023
Jamie Joseph is out of the running to coach the All Blacks after he inked a new deal to remain in charge of Japan through to the end of the 2023 Rugby World Cup.
Rugby Australia has today announced the appointment of Dave Rennie as Head Coach of the Qantas Wallabies
Well Joseph already was coach of Japan, had indicated at WC he was keen on doing it until 2023, and Rennie had been in discussion with RA since Feburary, and he actually said that Raelene Castle and Scott Johnson met with him then. Rennie could not be actually officially appointed until RA met after the WC
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@frye said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
I just don't think you can deny Robertson's consistency in success. Five consecutive SR titles is unprecedented (and they were also unbeaten in their run for a sixth). That shows a knack for making the right call at the right time, in both selectorial and coaching decisions. It also helps that he appears to genuinely relate to the players better than I think the older generation of coaches do.
And for those that talk about the wealth of talent at Robertson's disposal and the front office etc: Blackadder won 0 titles in 8 years.
Not to hark on about Foster's record but he is obviously (partly) accountable for the 2017 lions series and the 2019 world cup. And a 50/50 record in 2020 is straight up poor. I think the ABs have to go unbeaten to finish the year as the #1 team and I think that would be enough to prove he should keep the reins. If not though I think Robertson/Brown should be appointed from '22 onwards.
How the hell are you going to appoint Robertson and Brown, Robertson wanted Brown to stand as his assistant last time, and he said no thanks I am keen on sticking with Jamie Joseph at Japan until after the next WC.
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@dan54 said in Poll: Foster reappointment:
How the hell are you going to appoint Robertson and Brown, Robertson wanted Brown to stand as his assistant last time, and he said no thanks I am keen on sticking with Jamie Joseph at Japan until after the next WC.
As did Foster.
This explains why NZR wants to know (at least privately) who your full coaching team will be. Imagine appointing a coach and then the names they dropped in the interview as suggested assistants aren't interested.
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