Super Rugby Women's Competition
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I'd be interested in how they'll avoid the pitfalls of the WNBA. I don't know anything about that, but on paper it probably looked potentially good for the game. I guess the amateur participation ingredient is a major point of difference.
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@siam said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
I'd be interested in how they'll avoid the pitfalls of the WNBA. I don't know anything about that, but on paper it probably looked potentially good for the game. I guess the amateur participation ingredient is a major point of difference.
Closer to home would be the School Rugby they put on TV, or going back way further Friday Night Club footy. What was the viewing numbers on those? Did they cover their costs?
I doubt it, and I doubt the same for the womans rugby.
If you go by other types of TV, the first season is usually the best ratings, how did the womans Super Rugby launch rate?
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@kirwan haha me too! I only put two and two together after I'd already posted it. But hey, look at the great debate!
I tend to agree with one of the first replies to Sumo's tweet - it shouldn't really matter if it's run at a loss (unless it's ridiculous of course).
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The NPC is a loss-making competition isn't it? I'd be interested to know how much Sky pays for the TV broadcasting rights relative to the grants NZR gives to the provincial unions.
Heartland rugby is a cost to NZR and the players aren't paid or any games shown live until the finals. If it was just about making a profit, or breaking even, we'd be left with SR and AB tests.
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P.S. Nice knowing you guys.
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How about we put the "equality between the sexes" principle to the test and imagine that NZ Netball decided to provide an opportunity for a Men's league - exactly the same as NZRU are doing for women's rugby?
I wonder what the viability of that would be? The reaction from the existing netball sorority? Gushing support from the media?
Calm down, I'm making the point that comparing the sexes on the basis of equality is a failed concept. It veers into equality of outcome and illuminates fools like the woman in the tweet.
NZRUs push to provide equality of opportunity is highly and wholly commendable. Once the opportunity is rightfully given then the project is dependent on itself, and comparisons to male rugby are doomed to divide good intentioned people.
Watch out for this great opportunity for girls if it's contaminated and hindered by people focusing on outcomes- from both sexes.
Rule 4: "Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today." 🙂
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@siam said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
How about we put the "equality between the sexes" principle to the test and imagine that NZ Netball decided to provide an opportunity for a Men's league - exactly the same as NZRU are doing for women's rugby?
I wonder what the viability of that would be? The reaction from the existing netball sorority? Gushing support from the media?
Calm down, I'm making the point that comparing the sexes on the basis of equality is a failed concept. It veers into equality of outcome and illuminates fools like the woman in the tweet.
NZRUs push to provide equality of opportunity is highly and wholly commendable. Once the opportunity is rightfully given then the project is dependent on itself, and comparisons to male rugby are doomed to divide good intentioned people.
Watch out for this great opportunity for girls if it's contaminated and hindered by people focusing on outcomes- from both sexes.
Rule 4: "Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today." 🙂
I basically agree, but it’s worth pointing out the Olympics requirement.
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@bovidae although most NPC teams have been operating within themselves in recent years, no longer running at losses, but fair point.
But yea I guess it depends how much growth you expect from the woman's game internationally and therefore potential revenue increases.
Reality is, some woman's sports are often perceived as an inferior product to the men's version, so while there may be increased participation it doesn't always translate to dollars.
I do wonder what number of fans would pay same price of admission to watch the Black Ferns v Aus at Eden Park that they would for ABs v Aus, as a stand alone, not a curtain raiser (and again if you replicated in Aus) and similarly eyeballs on tv.
I'm not putting the product down, I just think we are a long way off them selling out EP for a BFs test
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@taniwharugby said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@bovidae although most NPC teams have been operating within themselves in recent years, no longer running at losses, but fair point.
If you removed the annual NZR grant I doubt that the PUs would be able to pay their players/staff and survive solely on sponsorship income and gate receipts.
I do wonder what number of fans would pay same price of admission to watch the Black Ferns v Aus at Eden Park that they would for ABs v Aus, as a stand alone, not a curtain raiser (and again if you replicated in Aus) and similarly eyeballs on tv.
I'm not putting the product down, I just think we are a long way off them selling out EP for a BFs test
I agree with that. From memory, the first women's rugby test I went to was in the late 1990s. The likes of Vanessa Cootes and Louisa Wall were playing. I've been to a few more in Hamilton since then but entry has always been free.
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Can I be a complete misogynistic arsehole and point out that no one wants to see women play sport unless they look like beach volleyballers ?
No matter how professional they get the blokes are always gonna be fitter, faster, stronger and more skilled overall. So people will watch them instead.
Anyway, must dash the other half is getting my pipe and slippers ready after a hard days work.
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@bovidae SUper Rugby teams would likewise be unable to survive is they had to rely on gate takings and sponsorships generated by themselves. Money from the PUs share of the television rights paid to the NZRFU technically is the PUs anyway given they are the providers of the product being televised.
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@mn5 said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Can I be a complete misogynistic arsehole and point out that no one wants to see women play sport unless they look like beach volleyballers ?
No matter how professional they get the blokes are always gonna be fitter, faster, stronger and more skilled overall. So people will watch them instead.
Anyway, must dash the other half is getting my pipe and slippers ready after a hard days work.
Is that what they call "an inconvenient truth"?😉
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@mn5 said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
no one wants to see women play sport unless they look like beach volleyballers
Yeah definitely don't agree with that, but any reason to post this eh
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Reading an article today, planning is well advanced for a 4-team competition to start in March next year. Teams based in Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington and Christchurch. A round-robin and final.
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@bovidae not sure if this will work unless they play these as curtain-raisers to the men’s Super Rugby teams. I just can’t see them selling enough tickets / getting enough eyes on screens to make this feasible if the games are marketed as seperate events entirely.
Many would disagree, but to me the women’s game isn’t at a high enough standard yet to warrant their own Super competition, especially during a pandemic. I tried watching some of the Farah Palmer Cup the other day and let’s just say I wouldn’t exactly spend my hard earned $$ on the product.
I’m all for growing women’s rugby but rushing a comp like this could end up doing more damage than good. Will be interesting to see what happens and happy to be proven wrong.
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@canes4life said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
I’m all for growing women’s rugby but rushing a comp like this could end up doing more damage than good. Will be interesting to see what happens and happy to be proven wrong.
I coach a female rep team as part of the investment in developing a women's senior competition and I wouldn't pay to watch women's rugby.
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Men's Super Rugby is of a much higher standard than NPC, so women's SR will also be of a much higher standard than FPC.
If these games are stand-alone games, they'll be played at small grounds (e.g. Jerry Collins stadium instead of Sky Stadium; Rugby Park, instead of Christchurch Stadium etc.), so the ticket prices will be much lower.
I'll happily pay for a ticket to a women's SR game, provided it's not at Sky Stadium prices.
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@bovidae said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Reading an article today, planning is well advanced for a 4-team competition to start in March next year. Teams based in Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington and Christchurch. A round-robin and final.
...wait...so i'd have to support the crusaders?...i thought they were trying to attract new fans....
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@kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@bovidae said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Reading an article today, planning is well advanced for a 4-team competition to start in March next year. Teams based in Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington and Christchurch. A round-robin and final.
...wait...so i'd have to support the crusaders?...i thought they were trying to attract new fans....
They've taken the best Otago players already.
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@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Men's Super Rugby is of a much higher standard than NPC, so women's SR will also be of a much higher standard than FPC.
If these games are stand-alone games, they'll be played at small grounds (e.g. Jerry Collins stadium instead of Sky Stadium; Rugby Park, instead of Christchurch Stadium etc.), so the ticket prices will be much lower.
I'll happily pay for a ticket to a women's SR game, provided it's not at Sky Stadium prices.
Not sure that statement is true. Worst case scenerio is that the standard is exactly the same, because you are assuming that the consolidation of talent will have the same effect as it does in the men's team.
Not sure there is any evidence of that, as it's really early days. Are they training full time like the men? Or this semi-pro still? If semi-pro then it leans more towards the standard being the same.
Has anybody done any research if there is a market for women's rugby? Will women watch it? Will men?
I know that there was alot of talk about the potential ratings for High School rugby, that didn't eventuate either. At the end of the day, there are so many choices for sports fans, you have to have a really good product to steal away eyeballs.
I'm a rugby tragic and find it hard to get through a woman's match, standard is not great and it's like watching rugby in slow motion. Woman's sevens is a bit better, that's reasonably fun to watch.
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@bovidae said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@bovidae said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Reading an article today, planning is well advanced for a 4-team competition to start in March next year. Teams based in Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington and Christchurch. A round-robin and final.
...wait...so i'd have to support the crusaders?...i thought they were trying to attract new fans....
They've taken the best Otago players already.
ive got lots of ties to chch..but i just dont think i can do it
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@kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@bovidae said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@bovidae said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Reading an article today, planning is well advanced for a 4-team competition to start in March next year. Teams based in Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington and Christchurch. A round-robin and final.
...wait...so i'd have to support the crusaders?...i thought they were trying to attract new fans....
They've taken the best Otago players already.
ive got lots of ties to chch..but i just dont think i can do it
I know a lot of Otago-ites that feel the same. Best option is to have a different name for the one SI team. Base it in Chch but take games to Nelson, Dunedin etc when they can.
" Southern Pounamu" or something like that might get around the fact that everyone else hates the Crusaders name. -
@crucial 100% behind that
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@kirwan said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Men's Super Rugby is of a much higher standard than NPC, so women's SR will also be of a much higher standard than FPC.
If these games are stand-alone games, they'll be played at small grounds (e.g. Jerry Collins stadium instead of Sky Stadium; Rugby Park, instead of Christchurch Stadium etc.), so the ticket prices will be much lower.
I'll happily pay for a ticket to a women's SR game, provided it's not at Sky Stadium prices.
Not sure that statement is true. Worst case scenerio is that the standard is exactly the same, because you are assuming that the consolidation of talent will have the same effect as it does in the men's team.
Not sure there is any evidence of that, as it's really early days. Are they training full time like the men? Or this semi-pro still? If semi-pro then it leans more towards the standard being the same.
Has anybody done any research if there is a market for women's rugby? Will women watch it? Will men?
I know that there was alot of talk about the potential ratings for High School rugby, that didn't eventuate either. At the end of the day, there are so many choices for sports fans, you have to have a really good product to steal away eyeballs.
I'm a rugby tragic and find it hard to get through a woman's match, standard is not great and it's like watching rugby in slow motion. Woman's sevens is a bit better, that's reasonably fun to watch.
I get the argument that this may be moving too fast but I see it as increasing experience levels which will, in turn, increase skills.
The biggest problem with women's rugby is the amount of games available to get experience. School and Club comps have few teams so players are moving up a level to FPC with very little experience.
Growing the game in visibility will, in turn, increase participation etc etc.
Our top level 7s players show that if you play a often and gain experience you can produce high quality entertainment. -
A women's Super competition is also important for the Black Ferns in preparation for a home WC. The European teams have an advantage as they play so many more games.
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@kiwiwomble said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@bovidae said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Reading an article today, planning is well advanced for a 4-team competition to start in March next year. Teams based in Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington and Christchurch. A round-robin and final.
...wait...so i'd have to support the crusaders?...i thought they were trying to attract new fans....
They may not be called the Crusaders ...
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@kirwan said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Men's Super Rugby is of a much higher standard than NPC, so women's SR will also be of a much higher standard than FPC.
If these games are stand-alone games, they'll be played at small grounds (e.g. Jerry Collins stadium instead of Sky Stadium; Rugby Park, instead of Christchurch Stadium etc.), so the ticket prices will be much lower.
I'll happily pay for a ticket to a women's SR game, provided it's not at Sky Stadium prices.
Not sure that statement is true. Worst case scenerio is that the standard is exactly the same, because you are assuming that the consolidation of talent will have the same effect as it does in the men's team.
I made that statement, because I expect them to pick the best players available in the FPC, just like men's SR teams pick the best NPC players (and not the club rugby players that have NPC contracts to fill the roster to have enough players in all positions, but are no way near SR level).
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@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@kirwan said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Men's Super Rugby is of a much higher standard than NPC, so women's SR will also be of a much higher standard than FPC.
If these games are stand-alone games, they'll be played at small grounds (e.g. Jerry Collins stadium instead of Sky Stadium; Rugby Park, instead of Christchurch Stadium etc.), so the ticket prices will be much lower.
I'll happily pay for a ticket to a women's SR game, provided it's not at Sky Stadium prices.
Not sure that statement is true. Worst case scenerio is that the standard is exactly the same, because you are assuming that the consolidation of talent will have the same effect as it does in the men's team.
I made that statement, because I expect them to pick the best players available in the FPC, just like men's SR teams pick the best NPC players (and not the club rugby players that have NPC contracts to fill the roster to have enough players in all positions, but are no way near SR level).
Yes, I understand your the point you are trying to make. It's just that it's based on the assumption that the gap between good and bad players is similar between mens and woman's rugby.
If the gap is small, then the standard will be effectively the same.
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@crucial said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@kirwan said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Men's Super Rugby is of a much higher standard than NPC, so women's SR will also be of a much higher standard than FPC.
If these games are stand-alone games, they'll be played at small grounds (e.g. Jerry Collins stadium instead of Sky Stadium; Rugby Park, instead of Christchurch Stadium etc.), so the ticket prices will be much lower.
I'll happily pay for a ticket to a women's SR game, provided it's not at Sky Stadium prices.
Not sure that statement is true. Worst case scenerio is that the standard is exactly the same, because you are assuming that the consolidation of talent will have the same effect as it does in the men's team.
Not sure there is any evidence of that, as it's really early days. Are they training full time like the men? Or this semi-pro still? If semi-pro then it leans more towards the standard being the same.
Has anybody done any research if there is a market for women's rugby? Will women watch it? Will men?
I know that there was alot of talk about the potential ratings for High School rugby, that didn't eventuate either. At the end of the day, there are so many choices for sports fans, you have to have a really good product to steal away eyeballs.
I'm a rugby tragic and find it hard to get through a woman's match, standard is not great and it's like watching rugby in slow motion. Woman's sevens is a bit better, that's reasonably fun to watch.
I get the argument that this may be moving too fast but I see it as increasing experience levels which will, in turn, increase skills.
The biggest problem with women's rugby is the amount of games available to get experience. School and Club comps have few teams so players are moving up a level to FPC with very little experience.
Growing the game in visibility will, in turn, increase participation etc etc.
Our top level 7s players show that if you play a often and gain experience you can produce high quality entertainment.The build it and they will come argument in short. Considering how poorly funded NZ Rugby is right now, it's a risk to drain finances for these sort of comps without have a clear revenue model to make it sustainable.
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The new four-team competition will officially be launched in the next couple of weeks, but Stuff understands it will consist of three rounds, before the top two teams contest a final.
The quick-fire format is expected to be in place for the first two years, but there are plans for it to morph into an expanded trans- Ta$man competition in the near future.
Three of the four teams will be aligned to the three North Island Super Rugby franchises – the Blues, Chiefs and Hurricanes - while a soon-to-be launched South Island team will be based in Christchurch.
While the Blues and Chiefs are expected to play under the same names and identities as the existing men’s sides, at least initially, it’s understood the Hurricanes are considering change.Teams are in the process of finalising their squads, which will consist of 28 players and be revealed next month.
As is the case in men’s Super Rugby, players sign with New Zealand Rugby and are seconded to teams.>There is expected to be a required number of players from each team’s home region, while a player draft, much like the one in the early days of men’s Super Rugby, will also be utilised.
NZR head of women’s rugby development Cate Sexton has already made it clear it won’t be a full-time commitment for players, requiring them to leave their jobs for three months.
Instead, they will be asked to assemble for brief periods, either Thursday to Sunday or Friday to Monday.
The draw will be released after the reveal of the inaugural Super Rugby Pacific draw, which is understood to be all but finalised, with kickoff set for February 18.
The women’s competition will kickoff the following weekend, with some games likely to be double-headers alongside Super Rugby Pacific games.
However, the South Island team is likely to plan stand-alone games, potentially at smaller regional grounds. -
Still can't quite see how that SI team will work in reality unless it is simply the Cantab FPC team.
They would be asking players to group for training on say a Thursday in Chch, then play a game in say Nelson or Dunedin or Timaru. If selected on merit there should be 2 or 3 Otago women in the squad. The travel back and forth they are asking for is crazy and counter-productive to performance.
A setup like this, although welcome, will only encourage a FPC like the old NPC where the franchise teams collected the provincial players. -
@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@crucial It's not better travelling from Napier (or Wairoa) to Wellington. New Plymouth to Hamilton isn't ideal, either.
Agree. That's why I think this could be detrimental if this becomes the pathway to the BFs. Players will simply congregate in 4 provincial unions (well possibly Blues and Chiefs might still get some union spread) so that they can train and perform better.
Spending 6 hours travelling to go to practice and hope for selection against someone that has travelled down the road isn't a great way to put yourself forward.
I'm not saying that it isn't possible or that there won't be some that are up for the challenge but the hurdles for some will be much higher than others.
I also assume this is non-paid? No compensation for 2 days a week off work or childcare etc?Just kinds of seems to be a case of 'be careful what you ask for'
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The Chiefs team trained in Cambridge in preparation for that game against the Blues. I think there was a player and a coach who travelled from NP, and obviously the CM players had to travel south.
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@bovidae said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
The Chiefs team trained in Cambridge in preparation for that game against the Blues. I think there was a player and a coach who travelled from NP, and obviously the CM players had to travel south.
And the BoP players over the hill. Apart from the Naki contingent the 'commute' is OK given the road connections.
It will definitely be the outlying provinces that are affected. Otago, Ta$man, HB, Naki and Northland the most.
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@crucial said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@crucial It's not better travelling from Napier (or Wairoa) to Wellington. New Plymouth to Hamilton isn't ideal, either.
I also assume this is non-paid? No compensation for 2 days a week off work or childcare etc?
Also from the article:
NZR believe the semi-professional competition, as Sexton recently called it, will provide a crucial step between the Farah Palmer Cup and international rugby.
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@stargazer said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@bovidae A name including the word Pounamu (as in 'Te Wai Pounamu') would be so much nicer. Then you have the team colour sorted, too.
The South Island women’s Super Rugby team will be governed by the Crusaders, but will have a unique name and brand identity
fair enough and promising
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Question for those in the know: Is it semi-professional as in they're paid while the comp is on (like NPC), or semi-professional as in centrally contracted player will be taking part?
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@antipodean said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Question for those in the know: Is it semi-professional as in they're paid while the comp is on (like NPC), or semi-professional as in centrally contracted player will be taking part?
Hard to tell. The NZRPA hasn't published an updated Collective agreement document that covers this new competition.
I would think that players would be centrally contracted in that they have to sign up to the RPA Collective for terms and conditions but the payment negotiated is under separate franchise contract.
The semi-pro description is that, like many NPC players, they will be paid while part of the comp. There will likely be a base, training and game attendance, travel compensation etc
The idea would be that they try and negotiate unpaid leave from any job they have and get paid by the franchise instead.
This one seems to be set up that you could hold down a job at the same time and only take a day or two off near the weekend.
Lost time due to travel could be an issue for some players unless they live near the bases.Edit: Given the quite small amounts paid to Black Ferns players I don't imagine that the payments for this comp will amount to much more than a few hundred bucks a week per player assembled with maybe a small match day payment for those selected each week.