All Blacks vs Fiji 2
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hansen and Foster have built up a pretty solid body of work when it comes to ridiculous selections and/or playing players out of position to the detriment of that player and the team now.
- Dual playmaker at the RWC - absolute disaster, putting our senior 10 at the back to make way for a rookie that couldn't handle the pressure. Idiotic and has hurt both players form at test level.
- Benching Sam Cane for the RWC semi final when we knew England would try to bash us up front. Seriously what in the God Damn Fuck were they thinking.
- Forging ahead with Bridge on the wing instead of someone that actually offers threat.
- Playing Goodhue at 12 when he was cementing himself in the team as a world class 13. His form suffered badly as a result.
- Playing Jordie on the wing after what I regard as his breakout season for the Canes at 15. Absolutely stuffed his confidence at test level where he ended up trying too much as it's not his natural position at all.
- Not developing Akira Ioane as our 6, instead giving others who aren't up to it chance after chance. If player management isn't the absolute crux of their job then I don't know what they fuck they are doing in the role.
I'm sure I've missed some there. And further to that, instead of addressing the glaring issue of not getting go-forward up front, they've just decided to hell with it let's just spin it wide early and hope for the best. Arrogant and idiotic game plans against world class organised defenses that puts our players under all sorts of pressure and leads to a high error rate.
It's fair to say I have precisely 0 confidence in our coaches and selectors right now.
I agree with all those points except the third. George Bridge has come on in leaps and bounds as a playmaker.
I genuinely don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
Sarcasm. Bridge is the Fern's new whipping boy.
Justified whipping boy.
To be fair, not his fault. He's playing the way he usually does. And it's not anti-cantab bias either; why isn't Reece coming in for the same attention? Because he's a better winger who creates and finishes.
Nope, definitely anti-Cantab bias. Just look at the shit McCaw and Carter used to cop. It was horrible. And the attacks on young Blackadder are beyond the pale.
In all seriousness, things really are a mess there at the moment. A starting backline with Bridge, Havili, Reiko at 13, and Reece doesn’t fill me with much confidence. I mean if we’re going to shoehorn players into unfamiliar positions we might as well chuck BB on the wing. He’d do a much better job there than most and then we can use JB or DMac at 15.
This is the thing. We don't have a centre that brings the traditional skills to the position, it's almost as though our centre is a converted 11...
We also now have an 11 that is not all that impressive at the traditional skill of finishing and beating a man and is being used as a hybrid fullback. For that role, I think he is one of the better options around. It's a role I think they were hoping JB would step up in.
We are being cute in our backline selections. I blame our lack of success against the rush defence. We are complicating things in an effort to find a solution.
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@rancid-schnitzel I think Havili had a good game and is a real prospect at 12 if he can replicate his Super form against the big boys. He is robust as well as creative.
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@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hansen and Foster have built up a pretty solid body of work when it comes to ridiculous selections and/or playing players out of position to the detriment of that player and the team now.
- Dual playmaker at the RWC - absolute disaster, putting our senior 10 at the back to make way for a rookie that couldn't handle the pressure. Idiotic and has hurt both players form at test level.
- Benching Sam Cane for the RWC semi final when we knew England would try to bash us up front. Seriously what in the God Damn Fuck were they thinking.
- Forging ahead with Bridge on the wing instead of someone that actually offers threat.
- Playing Goodhue at 12 when he was cementing himself in the team as a world class 13. His form suffered badly as a result.
- Playing Jordie on the wing after what I regard as his breakout season for the Canes at 15. Absolutely stuffed his confidence at test level where he ended up trying too much as it's not his natural position at all.
- Not developing Akira Ioane as our 6, instead giving others who aren't up to it chance after chance. If player management isn't the absolute crux of their job then I don't know what they fuck they are doing in the role.
I'm sure I've missed some there. And further to that, instead of addressing the glaring issue of not getting go-forward up front, they've just decided to hell with it let's just spin it wide early and hope for the best. Arrogant and idiotic game plans against world class organised defenses that puts our players under all sorts of pressure and leads to a high error rate.
It's fair to say I have precisely 0 confidence in our coaches and selectors right now.
I agree with all those points except the third. George Bridge has come on in leaps and bounds as a playmaker.
I genuinely don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
Sarcasm. Bridge is the Fern's new whipping boy.
Not entirely true. @Stag and @Stargazer do some top quality white knighting
No, I repeat what I said a few days ago. I've never been a Bridge fanboy. I've only said that he had a great SR in 2019 and he deserved his selection then, esp because RIoane wasn't performing. They had to pick someone better and at that time that was Bridge. Since then, he hasn't delivered, but he's not the only one.
I have not been white knighting Bridge. I'm just fed up with the way a large group of Ferners is using him as the "whipping boy" (to use @Crazy-Horse 's words). Him, or anyone. I just hate the way individual players are singled out, over and over again, and get the sh*t piled on them. That's all.
I dont' think it's anti-cantab bias, but having said that, I can't see a player from the Fern's favourite franchise becoming the Fern's whipping boy ..
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hansen and Foster have built up a pretty solid body of work when it comes to ridiculous selections and/or playing players out of position to the detriment of that player and the team now.
- Dual playmaker at the RWC - absolute disaster, putting our senior 10 at the back to make way for a rookie that couldn't handle the pressure. Idiotic and has hurt both players form at test level.
- Benching Sam Cane for the RWC semi final when we knew England would try to bash us up front. Seriously what in the God Damn Fuck were they thinking.
- Forging ahead with Bridge on the wing instead of someone that actually offers threat.
- Playing Goodhue at 12 when he was cementing himself in the team as a world class 13. His form suffered badly as a result.
- Playing Jordie on the wing after what I regard as his breakout season for the Canes at 15. Absolutely stuffed his confidence at test level where he ended up trying too much as it's not his natural position at all.
- Not developing Akira Ioane as our 6, instead giving others who aren't up to it chance after chance. If player management isn't the absolute crux of their job then I don't know what they fuck they are doing in the role.
I'm sure I've missed some there. And further to that, instead of addressing the glaring issue of not getting go-forward up front, they've just decided to hell with it let's just spin it wide early and hope for the best. Arrogant and idiotic game plans against world class organised defenses that puts our players under all sorts of pressure and leads to a high error rate.
It's fair to say I have precisely 0 confidence in our coaches and selectors right now.
I agree with all those points except the third. George Bridge has come on in leaps and bounds as a playmaker.
I genuinely don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
Sarcasm. Bridge is the Fern's new whipping boy.
Not entirely true. @Stag and @Stargazer do some top quality white knighting
No, I repeat what I said a few days ago. I've never been a Bridge fanboy. I've only said that he had a great SR in 2019 and he deserved his selection then, esp because RIoane wasn't performing. They had to pick someone better and at that time that was Bridge. Since then, he hasn't delivered, but he's not the only one.
I have not been white knighting Bridge. I'm just fed up with the way a large group of Ferners is using him as the "whipping boy" (to use @Crazy-Horse 's words). Him, or anyone. I just hate the way individual players are singled out, over and over again, and get the sh*t piled on them. That's all.
I dont' think it's anti-cantab bias, but having said that, I can't see a player from the Fern's favourite franchise becoming the Fern's whipping boy ..
That's because fringe Blues players are rarely selected and persisted with in the ABs. Fringe Cantabs get selected because they play for the team that wins Super Rugby nearly every bloody year, so any gaps in the ABs will invariably go to them - I.E. Bridge when Rieko was affected by injury, as he was running in tries behind a completely dominant pack where other wings in the competition had to work a lot harder.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hansen and Foster have built up a pretty solid body of work when it comes to ridiculous selections and/or playing players out of position to the detriment of that player and the team now.
- Dual playmaker at the RWC - absolute disaster, putting our senior 10 at the back to make way for a rookie that couldn't handle the pressure. Idiotic and has hurt both players form at test level.
- Benching Sam Cane for the RWC semi final when we knew England would try to bash us up front. Seriously what in the God Damn Fuck were they thinking.
- Forging ahead with Bridge on the wing instead of someone that actually offers threat.
- Playing Goodhue at 12 when he was cementing himself in the team as a world class 13. His form suffered badly as a result.
- Playing Jordie on the wing after what I regard as his breakout season for the Canes at 15. Absolutely stuffed his confidence at test level where he ended up trying too much as it's not his natural position at all.
- Not developing Akira Ioane as our 6, instead giving others who aren't up to it chance after chance. If player management isn't the absolute crux of their job then I don't know what they fuck they are doing in the role.
I'm sure I've missed some there. And further to that, instead of addressing the glaring issue of not getting go-forward up front, they've just decided to hell with it let's just spin it wide early and hope for the best. Arrogant and idiotic game plans against world class organised defenses that puts our players under all sorts of pressure and leads to a high error rate.
It's fair to say I have precisely 0 confidence in our coaches and selectors right now.
I agree with all those points except the third. George Bridge has come on in leaps and bounds as a playmaker.
I genuinely don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.
Sarcasm. Bridge is the Fern's new whipping boy.
Not entirely true. @Stag and @Stargazer do some top quality white knighting
No, I repeat what I said a few days ago. I've never been a Bridge fanboy. I've only said that he had a great SR in 2019 and he deserved his selection then, esp because RIoane wasn't performing. They had to pick someone better and at that time that was Bridge. Since then, he hasn't delivered, but he's not the only one.
I have not been white knighting Bridge. I'm just fed up with the way a large group of Ferners is using him as the "whipping boy" (to use @Crazy-Horse 's words). Him, or anyone. I just hate the way individual players are singled out, over and over again, and get the sh*t piled on them. That's all.
I dont' think it's anti-cantab bias, but having said that, I can't see a player from the Fern's favourite franchise becoming the Fern's whipping boy ..
Yeah those damn Chiefs always get a free pass.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I dont' think it's anti-cantab bias, but having said that, I can't see a player from the Fern's favourite franchise becoming the Fern's whipping boy ..
Bridge and Ralph are the poster children for system wings- not much individual flair, but super useful in a functioning system. The system just doesn't transfer to international level much, so their limitations get brutally exposed.
If it wasn't Foster selecting him with the track record he's got, the vitriol may not be as severe. The coaching team isn't rated, are perofrming the way I feared they might, and as a result their dodgy selections will cop grief. It's healthy. Otherwise we're just in fan-boi territory; they got selected, therefore they are above criticism.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I've never been a Bridge fanboy. I've only said that he had a great SR in 2019 and he deserved his selection then, esp because RIoane wasn't performing.
That's a Fern myth, RIoane out stat-ed Bridge in pretty much every stat you could compare them across in SR in 2019. He scored more tries, made more metres, and made more clean breaks in a season he was injured and in a worse team.
I also think at that time most people were in favour of Bridge's elevation to the All Blacks as another Ben Smith style player, not as our attacking left wing weapon.
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 And how many tries has Clarke scored? For people who go on about finishers, part of finishing is getting in the best position to score....
Not really an accurate comparison, Clarke was in the ABs at a particularly dysfunctional time against tier 1 teams, meanwhile 8 out of 11 of Bridge's test tries are against minnows.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@stargazer said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I dont' think it's anti-cantab bias, but having said that, I can't see a player from the Fern's favourite franchise becoming the Fern's whipping boy ..
Bridge and Ralph are the poster children for system wings- not much individual flair, but super useful in a functioning system. The system just doesn't transfer to international level much, so their limitations get brutally exposed.
If it wasn't Foster selecting him with the track record he's got, the vitriol may not be as severe. The coaching team isn't rated, are perofrming the way I feared they might, and as a result their dodgy selections will cop grief. It's healthy. Otherwise we're just in fan-boi territory; they got selected, therefore they are above criticism.
so if we're playing a moanga/Havili combo then bridge might be a more understandable option (still think it should be on the other side) as they can more readily replicate super level, but if we're mixing and matching then more of a individual flair type guys would be better?
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I am in the pro-Bridge camp. You all create your own reality through cognitive dissonance. Offers a dam sight more than fern favourite Clarke would if he was in the ABs in his present form.
Having said that Bridge wouldn't be in my first 15. Riko I. is the best No. 11 in the country.Clarke would be straight back in for me.
He is one of the few I would let play himself into form because his ceiling is sooooooooooooo much higher than Bridge. -
@nepia said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I think it was @dogmeat who went to an event about a year before the WC where a selector (Fox?) said that Bridge would be on the wing come WC time.
Is this true? It can't be true. I don't know if that makes the decision better or worse. At least with throw the baby out of the bathwater scenario after Perth then it's a snap decision made without forethought. But a planned decision? It's 10am on a Tuesday (which is my first day of the work week) and I think has been broken.
Yes @gt12 has it right. A year out from RWC19 Fox told me that Bridge was a lock.
In fact looking back on the conversation it seems Hansen and the coaching team had pretty much made up their minds how they were going to play out that campaign.
I do thing the injury to the hobbit put the plans into disarray but they were committed to the dual playmaker.
Unfortunately they didn't have a plan for how to deal with big aggressive confrontations in the loose.
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@bovidae I would prefer to have JB at fullback starting and leave Dmac out. He is bigger, more physical and can kick. We can not have 3 midgets in the backfield at one time. BB could cover 1st five and FB, Reiko on the wing with center cover if ALB healthy. I’m not sure fullback is BBs best position and despite everything he’s done for the ABs I think JB is a better FB and gets better each year.
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@broughie said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bovidae I would prefer to have JB at fullback starting and leave Dmac out.
I think JB is a better FB and gets better each year.
Couldn't agree more. Remember the bashing JB got (who is a fine rugby player) being played out of position on the wing. Foster (/shakes head)
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@no-quarter said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Hansen and Foster have built up a pretty solid body of work when it comes to ridiculous selections and/or playing players out of position to the detriment of that player and the team now.
- Dual playmaker at the RWC - absolute disaster, putting our senior 10 at the back to make way for a rookie that couldn't handle the pressure. Idiotic and has hurt both players form at test level.
- Benching Sam Cane for the RWC semi final when we knew England would try to bash us up front. Seriously what in the God Damn Fuck were they thinking.
- Forging ahead with Bridge on the wing instead of someone that actually offers threat.
- Playing Goodhue at 12 when he was cementing himself in the team as a world class 13. His form suffered badly as a result.
- Playing Jordie on the wing after what I regard as his breakout season for the Canes at 15. Absolutely stuffed his confidence at test level where he ended up trying too much as it's not his natural position at all.
- Not developing Akira Ioane as our 6, instead giving others who aren't up to it chance after chance. If player management isn't the absolute crux of their job then I don't know what they fuck they are doing in the role.
I'm sure I've missed some there. And further to that, instead of addressing the glaring issue of not getting go-forward up front, they've just decided to hell with it let's just spin it wide early and hope for the best. Arrogant and idiotic game plans against world class organised defenses that puts our players under all sorts of pressure and leads to a high error rate.
It's fair to say I have precisely 0 confidence in our coaches and selectors right now.
I think you’ll find that every AB coach (or coaching setup) in the pro era have all made very questionable selections and approaches from a fan’s perspective.
I know the whole “2 teams” that Henry had going which impacted selections and combinations in the lead up to 2007, and the no more than 3 games, R&R, didn’t sit well with a lot of fans.
Henry also persisted with some and not others.
Mitchell and Deans deserve a thread of their own…wait hang on, that’s been done 😉
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@broughie said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bovidae I would prefer to have JB at fullback starting and leave Dmac out. He is bigger, more physical and can kick.
JB's kicking in Dunners was ordinary. No point being able to kick the ball a long way if it's aimless.
Fullback is definitely JB's best position but I don't think he is a certainty to start. If the coaches want to continue using the fullback as a second play-maker then DMac is the better option. I'd like to see the Mo'unga-DMac combo used in this game to get a better gauge of its merits against better opposition.
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@mn5 And how many tries has Clarke scored? For people who go on about finishers, part of finishing is getting in the best position to score....
In terms of total tries, Bridge has a very good record - 11 tries from 12 tests.
Clark has only one from five tests.
However, Bridge's numbers are inflated by 5 against in Tonga in two tests, 2 against Japan, and 1 against Fiji.
If we compare their performances in the Rugby Championship (as that is the only international experience Clarke has), they are pretty similar.
In five tests, Clarke has one try against Argentina.
Similarly, in four tests, Bridge has one try in the Rugby Championship (although one against SA at the WC also).
None of that is counting the occasions when they both played in the same game and Clarke made a much bigger difference than Bridge e.g., Australia draw last year where Clarke came on in the 69th minute and made more metres in 11 minutes than Bridge managed in 80 while beating 4 men (Bridge beat one).
I thought that Bridge would be a similar player to BFA, but sadly he just doesn't have the footwork to be a force at this level. He can score tries if others create for him (like the try laid on by Havili this last week), but he doesn't create for others.
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@bovidae Some of it was aimless although some of it was just to get the ball down the other end of the field. I think Bowden’s kicking was worse but point to consider. I still don’t like the size of Mounga, D Mac and Reese in the back line.
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Mo'unga and DMac have a history of being very ineffective when up against a committed and organised defense. I know that goes without saying as good defenses are harder to crack, but they've both been possums in the headlights at test level in those situations.
I have high hopes for both of them, they certainly have the talent, but it's the mental side of things that is found wanting when the going gets tough. Both, in my opinion, are still unproven at the highest level.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@bovidae said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
JB might be the backup midfielder again this Sat but there is no way you can have BB, JB and DMac in the 23 if Mo'unga is starting too.
BB would be the one to miss out in that situation. JB on the bench.
how about jordie on the wing?......
How about Dane Coles at 7?
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