Red Card Lottery at the weekend
-
@arhs said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
Surprised not to see much comment on the string of red-cardable offences in the weekend's internationals - especially after the NH decision not to allow Red Card replacement after 20 minutes. After the weekend I think that is an extremely poor decision.
In watching matches this is what I though I saw, and is always open to interpretation. I have not re-watched and base this on initial impressions only:
a) Two players leap up for the ball and (both?) heads hit shoulders. Red Card Argentina.OK I’ll play
Did you even watch the Wales v Argentina match?
Mallia (15, Argentina) puts up a perfectly weighted kick which allowed him to cover the ground to contest for the ball when it landed.
Hardy (9, Wales) positioned himself perfectly to field the kick, bringing the ball into his breadbasket and making the catch.
In the act of catching the ball Hardy bent his knees and set his heels to ensure a good catch and brace himself for imminent impact.
So far, textbook from both players.
Mallia was never in position to contest for the ball in the air so set himself for the front on tackle of Hardy, which he timed perfectly.
Unfortunately for Mallia in the split second he had to decide to contest or tackle he dropped his head (correct tackling technique) and took his eye off Hardy and Hardy’s body position.
On first impact, Mallia’s head made contact with Hardy’s head.
Unlucky / poor tackling technique but the laws are crystal clear.
If first impact from the tackler is on the ball carrier’s head and there are no mitigating circumstances, then it’s a straight red.
Both players are vertically challenged and Hardy barely dropped whole body position in the act of catching the ball and stealing himself for impact.
No mitigating circumstances, referee had no choice but to show red.
Action starts around 01:50
-
I was happy with that call, the Argentinian was just too high and clocked him in the head. I'm not sure Argentina needed a man rubbed out for 50 minutes though.
The 20 minute red would have made this game much more interesting - I went straight to bed.
The non call on this tackle on Dmac is one I can't understand at all.
-
@gt12 said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
I was happy with that call, the Argentinian was just too high and clocked him in the head. I'm not sure Argentina needed a man rubbed out for 50 minutes though.
The 20 minute red would have made this game much more interesting - I went straight to bed.
The non call on this tackle on Dmac is one I can't understand at all.
The Fiji one is much worse. Can't believe they didn't look again - late-ish, and right in the head.
Argie tackle was clumsy, but he had time to go lower and should have. Unlucky you'd say, and a good example of a 20 min red being the right call.
-
@gt12 said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
I was happy with that call, the Argentinian was just too high and clocked him in the head. I'm not sure Argentina needed a man rubbed out for 50 minutes though.
The 20 minute red would have made this game much more interesting - I went straight to bed.
The non call on this tackle on Dmac is one I can't understand at all.
Dead set red
-
@mikethesnow yep I concede that one. Thanks. Switched on to match after the incident and thought I saw it played from an angle where Mallia looked up as if wanting to catch ball then dipped his head very late. But that replay shows exactly as you say. He was not high because he was still trying to catch He had time to lower himself and the impact point so red. But I still think that a 20 minute red is a fairer outcome for bad judgement as distinct to malicious foul play.
-
@mikethesnow said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@arhs said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
Surprised not to see much comment on the string of red-cardable offences in the weekend's internationals - especially after the NH decision not to allow Red Card replacement after 20 minutes. After the weekend I think that is an extremely poor decision.
In watching matches this is what I though I saw, and is always open to interpretation. I have not re-watched and base this on initial impressions only:
a) Two players leap up for the ball and (both?) heads hit shoulders. Red Card Argentina.Unfortunately for Mallia in the split second he had to decide to contest or tackle he dropped his head (correct tackling technique) and took his eye off Hardy and Hardy’s body position.
Unlucky / poor tackling technique but the laws are crystal clear.
I hate being pedantic but which is it?
this is where get annoyed, yes, punish contact with the head, of course...but, if the correct technique (low, head down to the side etc) means the tackler cant keep track of all the variables throughout the whole movement then that is a mitigating factor for me
its the same when a player never takes his eye off the ball in the air...its very hard for him to know if someone else is jumping for it...should he watch for the player...in which point hes unlikely to catch the ball and so could be argued isn't seriously competing for it
-
@kiwiwomble said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@mikethesnow said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@arhs said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
Surprised not to see much comment on the string of red-cardable offences in the weekend's internationals - especially after the NH decision not to allow Red Card replacement after 20 minutes. After the weekend I think that is an extremely poor decision.
In watching matches this is what I though I saw, and is always open to interpretation. I have not re-watched and base this on initial impressions only:
a) Two players leap up for the ball and (both?) heads hit shoulders. Red Card Argentina.Unfortunately for Mallia in the split second he had to decide to contest or tackle he dropped his head (correct tackling technique) and took his eye off Hardy and Hardy’s body position.
Unlucky / poor tackling technique but the laws are crystal clear.
I hate being pedantic but which is it?
this is where get annoyed, yes, punish contact with the head, of course...but, if the correct technique (low, head down to the side etc) means the tackler cant keep track of all the variables throughout the whole movement then that is a mitigating factor for me
its the same when a player never takes his eye off the ball in the air...its very hard for him to know if someone else is jumping for it...should he watch for the player...in which point hes unlikely to catch the ball and so could be argued isn't seriously competing for it
Both
Correct tackling technique applied to an incorrect area of the ball carrier
But you knew that
He absolutely smashed Hardy but unfortunately for him, he aimed too high
Big reward, big risk tackle
-
@gt12 said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
I was happy with that call, the Argentinian was just too high and clocked him in the head. I'm not sure Argentina needed a man rubbed out for 50 minutes though.
The 20 minute red would have made this game much more interesting - I went straight to bed.
The non call on this tackle on Dmac is one I can't understand at all.
There was a call. It was “boomfa”.
Now you know why we need 20minute RCs for commentators -
@kiwiwomble said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
its the same when a player never takes his eye off the ball in the air...its very hard for him to know if someone else is jumping for it
You answered yourself in the very same post, but surely you can see how reckless that is?
-
@bones my point is it can be a circular argument
if the player isn't watching the ball and jumps, competes, but doesn't get it...its quite likely he'll get done for not having a realistic chance of regathering...how could he...but if he never takes his eye of the ball...its hard to know where other players are...do he could go up...but the only thing stopping him getting it is another player...he didn't know about because he was watching the ball
In this case, hes tried to watch both and decided to tackle rather than go for the ball, even drops into the tackle, what he hasn't seen is the wales player drop slightly upon catching and so they go head to head to shoulder to shoulder
yes, starting point is RED but for me there are mitigating circumstances
You can see the ground covered and both go from standing to crouched and a second doesn't pass
I know, its just me, i hate seeing these red cards where in my mind there is no malice past past trying to make the perfectly timed tackle, i see it very different to the DMac tackle for example where hes lined him up from a mile away, and even then on first watching i tought it was just a huge hit, only on the reply did i click the hit to the head
-
@kiwiwomble you can't just decide you're going to ignore players, that's reckless and pretty silly in a game where there's 29 other players. "He only had eyes for the ball" is a stupid argument that doesn't apply to any other part of rugby.
-
@bones you do understand what im saying though, we also hear people say, if theyre not watching the ball that they cant have had a realistic chance of regathering. and the line between the two is razor thin and were handing out the ultimate punishment for it
In this case i think he times almost everything perfectly, its in less than a second both players drop resulting in an accidental (in my eyes) contact to the head, which would mitigate things
-
@kiwiwomble said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@bones you do understand what im saying though, we also hear people say, if theyre not watching the ball that they cant have had a realistic chance of regathering. and the line between the two is razor thin and were handing out the ultimate punishment for it
In this case i think he times almost everything perfectly, its in less than a second both players drop resulting in an accidental (in my eyes) contact to the head, which would mitigate things
Am I the only one here with peripheral vision? It's a pretty disingenuous phrase if you ask me - you're never "just watching the ball". That's what makes it even worse for me.
-
@bones peripheral vision s much better side to side than up and down
nearly a third smaller, so when tracking a ball almost directly above you your vision whats directly in front of you is going to be less than ideal, combined with the tiny timeframes were talking about...it just seems harsh to say there were no mitigating factors, but im happy to accept that's just me
I dont want punishments to be as big a part of the game as they currently are, even penalties. I was always taught that penalties/YC/RC were degrees of punishment for deliberate cheating or foul play...not negative results of direct competition for the ball....but as above, i may well have to accept i am in the minority
-
-
@bones I’m not even sure what that one means sorry
-
@kiwiwomble they turned their head sideways, result! You can see the tongue firmly in the cheek even.
-
@kiwiwomble said in Red Card Lottery at the weekend:
@bones my point is it can be a circular argument
if the player isn't watching the ball and jumps, competes, but doesn't get it...its quite likely he'll get done for not having a realistic chance of regathering...how could he...but if he never takes his eye of the ball...its hard to know where other players are...do he could go up...but the only thing stopping him getting it is another player...he didn't know about because he was watching the ball
In this case, hes tried to watch both and decided to tackle rather than go for the ball, even drops into the tackle, what he hasn't seen is the wales player drop slightly upon catching and so they go head to head to shoulder to shoulder
yes, starting point is RED but for me there are mitigating circumstances
You can see the ground covered and both go from standing to crouched and a second doesn't pass
I know, its just me, i hate seeing these red cards where in my mind there is no malice past past trying to make the perfectly timed tackle, i see it very different to the DMac tackle for example where hes lined him up from a mile away, and even then on first watching i tought it was just a huge hit, only on the reply did i click the hit to the head
Well there's a shock, Kieran Hardy is 1.85m tall (I was expecting him to be much shorter)
So even with a 30cm loss in height for knee bend and shoulder slouch and 20cm for ground to over the boot height, that still leaves a 1.35m target zone.
Great tackling technique, poor execution.
First contact to ball carrier's head.
Clear red.
Aim lower, be more accurate.
