NH International Rugby
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
I like that. Can't see how anyone can say the first try was bogus after watching that.
Something of a different perspective but still a shit show. Did England have enough time to get the message across? Of course. Did some of their guys fan out? Yes. Did the ref tell England that time was going back on? No. Did he tell Biggar that time was going on? Yes. Did he check that England were ready for time going back on? No.
Farrell had stopped speaking to his players. Ten seconds later the ref blew his whistle and said time on. May had jogged to his wing. The Welsh water carriers were moving from the field of play. Watson and Ford were incredibly slow cover the wing. The kick was to perfection exposing their tardiness. Seeing all the angles, nowt wrong with that try and what the ref did.
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I reckon all these retired English players moaning about it on TV have been spending too much time watching their kids playing under 8s with referee-coaches.
"Anthony. Anthony! Pay attention. You're the wing yeah, you should should standing over there near the line. Bit further...little bit more...that's it, well done. No, you need to turn around, face towards the boy with ball so you can see. That's right. OK, everyone ready now? Great, let's play! Time on"
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande England were meandering back into place and had definitely finished talking. It's not for the ref to tell them to hurry up and get in place.
Agreed but neither of those points are in argument. England were lackadaisical without doubt. However the ref tells you to talk to your team, he then tells you time is on which he didn't do in anyway near a correct manner.
You do know he's come out and admitted to making a mistake here right?
No I don't. I know that Jutge has given a rather rambling, unofficial statement suggesting that he said he'd made some errors, but nothing specific and nothing from Gauzere.
Less rambling and more quite direct.The actual quote:
Joël Jutge, World Rugby’s Head of Match Officials, says Pascal Gauzere has acknowledged to him that he got both contentious first-half incidents wrong in Saturday’s Six Nations clash between Wales and England.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
Why on earth would the ref check if England are ready?
Because he has specifically told their captain to go and talk to them
He should check that they have had enough time to be ready, and he should call time on so both teams can hear,
Which he didn't do. He told Biggar time on, whistled and then called time on in general when Biggar's kick was already in flight.
but the team that gave away the penalty don't get to decide when they're ready to play again.>
Agreed but that is not in argument
If you're saying that the ref has to wait until the infringing side are ready then you're saying that the infringing side get to decide when he can restart by going as slow as they like.
Actually I have specifically said, that I haven't said that. If that makes sense?
He gave them plenty of time, a few of them used it, the rest faffed around and cost their team 7 points.>
That is not the point in contention.
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@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
I like that. Can't see how anyone can say the first try was bogus after watching that.
Something of a different perspective but still a shit show. Did England have enough time to get the message across? Of course. Did some of their guys fan out? Yes. Did the ref tell England that time was going back on? No. Did he tell Biggar that time was going on? Yes. Did he check that England were ready for time going back on? No.
Farrell had stopped speaking to his players. Ten seconds later the ref blew his whistle and said time on. May had jogged to his wing. The Welsh water carriers were moving from the field of play. Watson and Ford were incredibly slow cover the wing. The kick was to perfection exposing their tardiness. Seeing all the angles, nowt wrong with that try and what the ref did.
Nope. That's just wrong. He said time on to Bigger. Blew this whistle, Biggar took the kick and he then said "time iron" with the ball already in play. Have another look at the video.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
I reckon all these retired English players moaning about it on TV have been spending too much time watching their kids playing under 8s with referee-coaches.
... At last you've acknowledged that Sam Warburton is actually English.
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
Why on earth would the ref check if England are ready?
Because he has specifically told their captain to go and talk to them
He should check that they have had enough time to be ready, and he should call time on so both teams can hear,
Which he didn't do. He told Biggar time on, whistled and then called time on in general when Biggar's kick was already in flight.
but the team that gave away the penalty don't get to decide when they're ready to play again.>
Agreed but that is not in argument
If you're saying that the ref has to wait until the infringing side are ready then you're saying that the infringing side get to decide when he can restart by going as slow as they like.
Actually I have specifically said, that I haven't said that. If that makes sense?
You did say they don't get to decide. But you also said the ref has to wait until they're ready, which is basically the same thing.
Common sense says give them enough time to get ready - which he clearly did - and then restart.
It seems that the most the ref can be accused of doing wrong is saying "time on" too quietly. I don't know much about wing play, but I really think what went wrong had a little bit more to do with Watson being 30 metres out of position than Gauzere speaking too softly
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
I reckon all these retired English players moaning about it on TV have been spending too much time watching their kids playing under 8s with referee-coaches.
... At last you've acknowledged that Sam Warburton is actually English.
He said "I'd be livid if I was Owen Farrell", but that's just a fundamental truth. You could hardly be Owen Farrell if you weren't. Its like saying "I'd swim a lot if I was a fish"
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
I like that. Can't see how anyone can say the first try was bogus after watching that.
Something of a different perspective but still a shit show. Did England have enough time to get the message across? Of course. Did some of their guys fan out? Yes. Did the ref tell England that time was going back on? No. Did he tell Biggar that time was going on? Yes. Did he check that England were ready for time going back on? No.
Farrell had stopped speaking to his players. Ten seconds later the ref blew his whistle and said time on. May had jogged to his wing. The Welsh water carriers were moving from the field of play. Watson and Ford were incredibly slow cover the wing. The kick was to perfection exposing their tardiness. Seeing all the angles, nowt wrong with that try and what the ref did.
Nope. That's just wrong. He said time on to Bigger. Blew this whistle, Biggar took the kick and he then said "time iron" with the ball already in play. Have another look at the video.
I have seen the video, thank you. Time is on when the ref blows his whistle. Elliot Daly was already on the other wing by that point. The ref doesn't have to wait for all the defending team to get back in position when the attacking team awarded a penalty want to play. The game goes at the speed of the ref's whistle.
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@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
I like that. Can't see how anyone can say the first try was bogus after watching that.
Something of a different perspective but still a shit show. Did England have enough time to get the message across? Of course. Did some of their guys fan out? Yes. Did the ref tell England that time was going back on? No. Did he tell Biggar that time was going on? Yes. Did he check that England were ready for time going back on? No.
Farrell had stopped speaking to his players. Ten seconds later the ref blew his whistle and said time on. May had jogged to his wing. The Welsh water carriers were moving from the field of play. Watson and Ford were incredibly slow cover the wing. The kick was to perfection exposing their tardiness. Seeing all the angles, nowt wrong with that try and what the ref did.
Nope. That's just wrong. He said time on to Bigger. Blew this whistle, Biggar took the kick and he then said "time iron" with the ball already in play. Have another look at the video.
I have seen the video, thank you. Time is on when the ref blows his whistle. Elliot Daly was already on the other wing by that point. The ref doesn't have to wait for all the defending team to get back in position when the attacking team awarded a penalty want to play. The game goes at the speed of the ref's whistle.
Yeah I assumed that you'd seen the video, hence me saying have another look. Once you have, if you care to that is, answer whether what I'd said is correct, that he
- Said time is on to Biggar.
- He then blew his whistle.
- He then said in general time is on when the ball was already in flight.
For what it's worth I can see most of your points of view and agree to one degree or another with some. But taken as a whole that decision was just plain wrong. Ask yourself if your team was on the receiving end of that decision whether or not you'd be fuming. No ifs and buts, would you be fuming?
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
I reckon all these retired English players moaning about it on TV have been spending too much time watching their kids playing under 8s with referee-coaches.
... At last you've acknowledged that Sam Warburton is actually English.
He said "I'd be livid if I was Owen Farrell", but that's just a fundamental truth. You could hardly be Owen Farrell if you weren't. Its like saying "I'd swim a lot if I was a fish"
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
I like that. Can't see how anyone can say the first try was bogus after watching that.
Something of a different perspective but still a shit show. Did England have enough time to get the message across? Of course. Did some of their guys fan out? Yes. Did the ref tell England that time was going back on? No. Did he tell Biggar that time was going on? Yes. Did he check that England were ready for time going back on? No.
Farrell had stopped speaking to his players. Ten seconds later the ref blew his whistle and said time on. May had jogged to his wing. The Welsh water carriers were moving from the field of play. Watson and Ford were incredibly slow cover the wing. The kick was to perfection exposing their tardiness. Seeing all the angles, nowt wrong with that try and what the ref did.
Nope. That's just wrong. He said time on to Bigger. Blew this whistle, Biggar took the kick and he then said "time iron" with the ball already in play. Have another look at the video.
I have seen the video, thank you. Time is on when the ref blows his whistle. Elliot Daly was already on the other wing by that point. The ref doesn't have to wait for all the defending team to get back in position when the attacking team awarded a penalty want to play. The game goes at the speed of the ref's whistle.
Yeah I assumed that you'd seen the video, hence me saying have another look. Once you have, if you care to that is, answer whether what I'd said is correct, that he
- Said time is on to Biggar.
- He then blew his whistle.
- He then said in general time is on when the ball was already in flight.
For what it's worth I can see most of your points of view and agree to one degree or another with some. But taken as a whole that decision was just plain wrong. Ask yourself if your team was on the receiving end of that decision whether or not you'd be fuming. No ifs and buts, would you be fuming?
If those had players of a team I support I'd be absolutely fuming with the defenders for being lazy and not reacting to what was going on in front of them. School boy stuff. More generally, with the exception of John Dallas and the 1905 Try That Wasn't (Deans scored!), I've only ever complained about Rugby refs a handful of times here or anywhere else.
The ref did his job, perhaps not to absolute distinction. He could have waved away the England water carriers, but the Welsh ones were already leaving the field of play when Biggar was good to go and their side was in attack with a penalty, the England water carriers had no right being on the park at that point.
You are not disagreeing with what are the key points here. Farrell had finished speaking to his players as the ref told him; Ford wasn't invited by the ref to speak to the players so why he decided to address the huddle is beyond me, he isn't the captain and tactical Time Outs are not a feature in Rugby; the Ref checked to see some of the England players moving; he said play on; then blew his whistle; the game is alive at that point.
I assume you've heard the expression at some point "Play to the whistle"? England only have themselves to blame for not doing that on Saturday.
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
Did the ref tell England that time was going back on
Errr...he blew his whistle and signalled time on?
Errr... Biggar asked when time is back on, Ref said time is on to Biggar. Did not check if England were ready. Blew his whistle and then called "Time is on" when the ball was in flight.
Anyone can pick a hole here or there in the timeline but taken in whole it was a dreadful piece of refereeing and one that you'd all be spewing about if your team were on the arse end of it
Mmm. Looked to me that ref told Biggar to wait. Then thought that England were finished chat and heading back to position, raised arm and blew time on.
Biggar IMMEDIATELY made the kick, which was spot on, as was Adams leap.
Had Wales not been so surgical there wouldn’t have been a try.
A bit tough on England, but not as heinous as commentators made out.
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@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
Good debunking of the 2 controversial tries.
But ....
I have a problem with the quick tap for the halfback try. It's not taken from the spot or in line behind the spot. The spot is still covered in prone bodies. He needed to go behind that maul and tap in line with spot. Giving the defence the vital 2 or 3 seconds to align.
It's a bugbear of mine, though.
Most refs would let this slide, so not a Gauzerre or a French ref thing, but I hate it.
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@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
I like that. Can't see how anyone can say the first try was bogus after watching that.
Something of a different perspective but still a shit show. Did England have enough time to get the message across? Of course. Did some of their guys fan out? Yes. Did the ref tell England that time was going back on? No. Did he tell Biggar that time was going on? Yes. Did he check that England were ready for time going back on? No.
Farrell had stopped speaking to his players. Ten seconds later the ref blew his whistle and said time on. May had jogged to his wing. The Welsh water carriers were moving from the field of play. Watson and Ford were incredibly slow cover the wing. The kick was to perfection exposing their tardiness. Seeing all the angles, nowt wrong with that try and what the ref did.
Nope. That's just wrong. He said time on to Bigger. Blew this whistle, Biggar took the kick and he then said "time iron" with the ball already in play. Have another look at the video.
I have seen the video, thank you. Time is on when the ref blows his whistle. Elliot Daly was already on the other wing by that point. The ref doesn't have to wait for all the defending team to get back in position when the attacking team awarded a penalty want to play. The game goes at the speed of the ref's whistle.
Yeah I assumed that you'd seen the video, hence me saying have another look. Once you have, if you care to that is, answer whether what I'd said is correct, that he
- Said time is on to Biggar.
- He then blew his whistle.
- He then said in general time is on when the ball was already in flight.
For what it's worth I can see most of your points of view and agree to one degree or another with some. But taken as a whole that decision was just plain wrong. Ask yourself if your team was on the receiving end of that decision whether or not you'd be fuming. No ifs and buts, would you be fuming?
If those had players of a team I support I'd be absolutely fuming with the defenders for being lazy and not reacting to what was going on in front of them. School boy stuff. More generally, with the exception of John Dallas and the 1905 Try That Wasn't (Deans scored!), I've only ever complained about Rugby refs a handful of times here or anywhere else.
The ref did his job, perhaps not to absolute distinction. He could have waved away the England water carriers, but the Welsh ones were already leaving the field of play when Biggar was good to go and their side was in attack with a penalty, the England water carriers had no right being on the park at that point.
You are not disagreeing with what are the key points here. Farrell had finished speaking to his players as the ref told him; Ford wasn't invited by the ref to speak to the players so why he decided to address the huddle is beyond me, he isn't the captain and tactical Time Outs are not a feature in Rugby; the Ref checked to see some of the England players moving; he said play on; then blew his whistle; the game is alive at that point.
I assume you've heard the expression at some point "Play to the whistle"? England only have themselves to blame for not doing that on Saturday.
But the refereeing for the first try was absolutely appalling. As the clip from 1:03 to 1:35 makes clear, both sides had Water Carriers on the field of play. Given their role on the field of play was non-essential, the ref should have told them to move before saying time on. England didn't help themselves by being tardy and lazy, but the ref got it very, very, very wrong:
I think I'll just leave this quote here and say no more on the subject
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@catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@antipodean said in NH International Rugby:
@cgrant said in NH International Rugby:
To Bones :
The ball went clearly forward, IMO. But it fell on Zammit's leg, so could it be considered like a kick ?I'd say no because a kick has to be intentional.
Is there anything about intent in the laws? I don't think there is, so it makes no difference.
It's in the definition of what constitutes a kick.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
That's interesting. So, by that definition, I couldn't throw the ball over my shoulder and then kick it back over my head with my heel, regather and then score?
That very move has been done in a lower league game in England a few years ago. It's on youtube somewhere. A feller called Alan Knuckley if I recall. Good skills and pretty funny to watch.
Footage here:-
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