NH International Rugby
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib Neither try should have stood as the brilliant Nigel Owens explains clearly and simply here:
Nigel Owens explains exactly why Wales v England ref got both tries wrong
There has been a huge debate over the scores by Josh Adams and Liam Williams in the Triple Crown-clinching victory at the Principality Stadium
Nigel Owens believes neither of Wales’ first two tries in their Triple Crown-clinching victory over England should have stood. There was huge controversy over the first-half touchdowns from Josh Adams and Liam Williams during the 40-24 win for Wayne Pivac’s men at the Principality Stadium.
Now World Cup final referee Owens has delivered his verdict on both of them.
The first came on 16 minutes when fly-half Dan Biggar put in a pinpoint cross-kick for winger Adams to score out on the left.
That provoked a furious response from England captain Owen Farrell who argued with referee Pascal Gauzere that his team hadn’t been given sufficient time to re-set after Farrell had passed on a warning to them about too many penalties.
But Gauzere rejected Farrell’s complaints and awarded the try.
Giving his thoughts, Welshman Owens said: “It’s an interesting one.
“The referee clearly says ‘Time on’, so then Biggar is quite entitled to do what he does quickly.
“But I think Owen Farrell’s point here is correct.
“If you are asking the captain to speak to his team, I certainly wouldn’t restart time until I have given them time to line up in defence.
“The only reason they are in a huddle under the posts is you have told the captain to speak to his players and he puts time off for them to do that.
“So, you can’t put time back on then while they are still in the huddle.
“You are not giving them the time to line up to defend. It’s an unfair advantage.
“I would have allowed them to reset before I put time on. It’s only fair that you do that because you have asked them to go in the huddle in the first place.”
The second contentious Wales try came on 29 minutes when the officials decided there had not been a knock on by Louis Rees-Zammit ahead of full-back Liam Williams touching down.
But Owens views the incident in a different light.
“It was definitely a knock on,” he said, elaborating on the points he made on S4C.
“You see situations sometimes where a player loses control of a ball and then kicks it before it hits the ground. Well, that’s still classed as a knock on.
“What the law says is if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else.
“So, in this case, Rees-Zammit definitely touches the ball and it travels forward on to his calf, then goes backwards and then comes off an England player.
“So it has travelled forward off his hand first and he fails to regain possession of it, which means it’s a knock on.
“If it hits his hand and goes backwards, then it’s play on.
“But it hits his hand, the ball is still travelling forward and then it hits his calf and goes backwards.
“So, in law, he loses control of the ball forward and then fails to regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else, so it’s a knock on.
“If anybody wants an answer on it, look at Rees-Zammit’s face when they award the try.
“It’s 100 per cent a knock on.
Listening to the TMO, he says he doesn’t see the ball go forward.
“That sounds to me like he doesn’t think the ball touched the hand.
“But when you look at it, it has definitely touched Rees-Zammit’s hand.
“If you lose control of the ball forward, you must regain possession of it for it not to be a knock on.
“It’s irrelevant that it’s gone backwards off his calf. The fact is it’s gone forward first before that. That is the key in that decision.
“Even if it went laterally down, it’s a knock on.”
Owens concluded: “So, to me, those two tries shouldn’t stand.”
Owens doesn't say the first try shouldn't have stood - he says that he would have refereed it differently. Those are different things. He actually says Biggar is entitled to kick for the try. I don't disagree the ref made a mess of it, but England contributed to it too. If I was May on the left wing of be furious at my teammates for lack of attention.
For the second one, Nige has just got the rule wrong. It talks about loss of posession, not loss of control - different things. Don't know why he works make that mistake, enjoying retirement I guess.
Interesting. Reading his comments this is the key one for me (although he took a while to get there):
So, in law, he loses control of the ball forward and then fails to regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else, so it’s a knock on
If that's the rule, then I think it's probably a knock on. However, this makes me immediately think of a situation where a player loses control forward, but then before it hits the ground he tries to regain possession but ends up batting it backwards before it hits the ground. Under Nige's interpretation, would this be a knock on. He lost control forward and then doesn't regain control before it hits the ground (even though the ball is moving backward immediately before contact).
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@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
The law definition states:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Given that there is an embedded 'or' clause in there, let's cut it down to the parts that matter:
When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Explain how that didn't happen here. Use red arrows if needed.
I think that happened, but see my earlier post where the ball goes forwards and then backwards before hitting the ground - what happens there? (Honest question, not being a smart arse)
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
The law definition states:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Given that there is an embedded 'or' clause in there, let's cut it down to the parts that matter:
When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Explain how that didn't happen here. Use red arrows if needed.
Let me pour another drink and then I'll have a go.
Right.
The law you've quoted talks about when when player loses possession. It's not clear exactly when that is. It can't be when the ball leaves the player's hands, because in that case just about every kick would be a knock on.
The law book defines possession as "An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control." This isn't very helpful, because you could be 10 metres away from the ball on you'll arse and still trying to bring it under control. So it reads like you only lose possession when you stop trying to get it under control, which is a bit silly.
What happend in this case is LRZ knocks the ball forward with his right hand. Then he gets briefly gets both hands on it, it drops down onto the back of his right thigh. His left hand loses contact as it's falling, but the right appears to stay in contact until it hits his thigh. From there it drops down and back onto his calf, and then bounces backwards.
So at what point did he lose posession? It could be after his final touch, but that was backwards off his leg so that's not a knock-on. You could say it is after the last touch with his hand (as it bounces off his thigh), that's a little less clear but to me that also looks backwards. I guess you could say it is when he loses control of the ball, but it's hard to pinpoint when that is as he never really had control. The first touch off his hand is the one that clearly went forwards, but I'm not seeing any argument for that being the moment he lost possession, given that he touched it about 3 more times after that. Ergo, no knock on.
So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Having said that, I think there are some problems with the laws: 1) they're not as clear as they should be and 2) they're not always applied consistently and in line with what's written. That's contributing to the wildly different conclusions we're getting
There's nothing wrong with the law, just the ridiculous decision in this case by a ref who shouldn't get another game until he learns to read, and think.
The player drops it, it travels forward, and he doesn't catch it.
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@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
The law definition states:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Given that there is an embedded 'or' clause in there, let's cut it down to the parts that matter:
When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Explain how that didn't happen here. Use red arrows if needed.
Let me pour another drink and then I'll have a go.
Right.
The law you've quoted talks about when when player loses possession. It's not clear exactly when that is. It can't be when the ball leaves the player's hands, because in that case just about every kick would be a knock on.
The law book defines possession as "An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control." This isn't very helpful, because you could be 10 metres away from the ball on you'll arse and still trying to bring it under control. So it reads like you only lose possession when you stop trying to get it under control, which is a bit silly.
What happend in this case is LRZ knocks the ball forward with his right hand. Then he gets briefly gets both hands on it, it drops down onto the back of his right thigh. His left hand loses contact as it's falling, but the right appears to stay in contact until it hits his thigh. From there it drops down and back onto his calf, and then bounces backwards.
So at what point did he lose posession? It could be after his final touch, but that was backwards off his leg so that's not a knock-on. You could say it is after the last touch with his hand (as it bounces off his thigh), that's a little less clear but to me that also looks backwards. I guess you could say it is when he loses control of the ball, but it's hard to pinpoint when that is as he never really had control. The first touch off his hand is the one that clearly went forwards, but I'm not seeing any argument for that being the moment he lost possession, given that he touched it about 3 more times after that. Ergo, no knock on.
So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Having said that, I think there are some problems with the laws: 1) they're not as clear as they should be and 2) they're not always applied consistently and in line with what's written. That's contributing to the wildly different conclusions we're getting
There's nothing wrong with the law, just the ridiculous decision in this case by a ref who shouldn't get another game until he learns to read, and think.
The player drops it, it travels forward, and he doesn't catch it.
Apart from the fact that's not what the laws say and not what happened you're spot on.
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@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
not what happened
Qué?
"The player drops it, it travels forward" is not a complete description of what happened. You need to know what happens after to determine if it's a knock-on.
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
The law definition states:
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Given that there is an embedded 'or' clause in there, let's cut it down to the parts that matter:
When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Explain how that didn't happen here. Use red arrows if needed.
I think that happened, but see my earlier post where the ball goes forwards and then backwards before hitting the ground - what happens there? (Honest question, not being a smart arse)
It doesn't matter that is goes backwards afterwards. He drops the ball and it moves forward. It doesn't mater that it moves backward after being stopped by his own body (and therefore moving backwards), it only matters if he catches it or not.
if he caught it, no worries, but because the ball touches the ground or another player (which it does) before the original player can catch it (which he didn't), it's a knock on.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
not what happened
Qué?
"The player drops it, it travels forward" is not a complete description of what happened. You need to know what happens after to determine if it's a knock-on.
Yes, if he caught it or not. Did he?
I actually bolded this above for you too . Did you miss it?
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Right, so have finally caught up on a few things related.
For what it's worth, the first try I'm not quite sure the referee is at fault. England have finished talking and are spreading out for defence, probably expecting a penalty kick. Ref clearly blows for time on and off we go. Should the ref have given longer? Possibly. But England weren't paying attention, it's that simple.
Second try is clearly knock on. He lost control of the ball and it went forwards. End of. Not even sure where the debate comes in. Everybody knows you can't lose control and then kick it, it must be controlled. And I've also learnt this morning that the heel doesn't count. For whatever reason. So I struggle to see wh this is even contentious.
Sonja crying. Well, whether its right or not, this is the world we live in, and if you choose to be on twitter then unfortunately there is always going be abuse (valid and invalid). Iv'e only seen the Farrell & Pivac interviews (both handled perfectly by them too, credit due) and she was clearly asking her question from a pissed off England fan perspective. We've seen this before from her so it's not anything new. If you don't want abuse, then either
a) ask professional unbiased questions
b) don't be on twitter.And to be honest, she didn't really have a point to be so focused on as Wales won by 16. You can argue that it cost England 14 points (all points awarded), 11 points (second try plus 3 points for penalty instead), 7 points or 0 points. Last I looked, all were under 16. And Pivac was spot on with his yellow card comment too.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
not what happened
Qué?
"The player drops it, it travels forward" is not a complete description of what happened. You need to know what happens after to determine if it's a knock-on.
It's exactly what happened.
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@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
not what happened
Qué?
"The player drops it, it travels forward" is not a complete description of what happened. You need to know what happens after to determine if it's a knock-on.
Yes, if he caught it or not. Did he?
I actually bolded this above for you too . Did you miss it?
Did you read the bit in the rules saying it has to go forward at the point he loses possession for it to count as a knock on? And that it's unclear at what point he loses possession?
By your simplified criteria then yes, it would be a knock-on. I've pointed out that actual rules, for better or worse, are a lot less simple (and less clear) than your interpretation.
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@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
not what happened
Qué?
"The player drops it, it travels forward" is not a complete description of what happened. You need to know what happens after to determine if it's a knock-on.
It's exactly what happened.
It's a part of what happened. Not enough of a part to see if it fits the laws' definition of a knock-on.
(I'm not defending the laws, by the way. I'm starting to regret having read them now, they really should be a lot clearer and simpler.)
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@majorrage said in NH International Rugby:
Sonja crying. Well, whether its right or not, this is the world we live in, and if you choose to be on twitter then unfortunately there is always going be abuse (valid and invalid). Iv'e only seen the Farrell & Pivac interviews (both handled perfectly by them too, credit due) and she was clearly asking her question from a pissed off England fan perspective. We've seen this before from her so it's not anything new. If you don't want abuse, then either
a) ask professional unbiased questions
b) don't be on twitter.And to be honest, she didn't really have a point to be so focused on as Wales won by 16.
I really resent her implication that her critics and Rugby fans in general are all sexist pigs. The vast majority of the comments I saw on Twitter had nothing to do with her gender.
No one (or very few people) on Twitter is complaining about Gabby Logan because she is an outstanding presenter of Rugby with a deep knowledge of and obvious passion for the game. Sonja McL not so much. Maybe she's a fantastic person off camera but those post-match interviews are inappropriate. It might be that it is not her who is at fault but the producers who are telling her to be an irritant to tired players after the game with her line of questions. Either way it is time for the BBC to retire the hatchet-job post-game interviews which are extremely tiresome. I thought their coverage otherwise of yesterday's match otherwise was excellent. A long way ahead of (UK) Sky or ITV at the moment.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@gt12 said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
not what happened
Qué?
"The player drops it, it travels forward" is not a complete description of what happened. You need to know what happens after to determine if it's a knock-on.
Yes, if he caught it or not. Did he?
I actually bolded this above for you too . Did you miss it?
Did you read the bit in the rules saying it has to go forward at the point he loses possession for it to count as a knock on? And that it's unclear at what point he loses possession?
By your simplified criteria then yes, it would be a knock-on. I've pointed out that actual rules, for better or worse, are a lot less simple (and less clear) than your interpretation.
It's not simplified, it's the way the law is meant to be interpreted, according to the definition of a knock-on, as explained by Nigel Owens.
BTW, he never has possession, so the more relevant part of the definition of the law is (I expect @Damo to show up and point this out at some point):
When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, orwhen a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm,or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward,and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.On the replay (36 seconds in), he doesn't ever actually get possession, he knocks it forward trying to catch it. The fact that he knocks it forward onto his leg, and then bounces backwards doesn't matter. What does matter is that he doesn't catch it before the ball touches the ground.
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@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
not what happened
Qué?
"The player drops it, it travels forward" is not a complete description of what happened. You need to know what happens after to determine if it's a knock-on.
It's exactly what happened.
It's a part of what happened. Not enough of a part to see if it fits the laws' definition of a knock-on.
(I'm not defending the laws, by the way. I'm starting to regret having read them now, they really should be a lot clearer and simpler.)
I think you're just getting to focused on trying to use the laws against themselves.
Do you really think the intention of the knock on law is to excuse moments like LRZ's?
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@bones said in NH International Rugby:
@majorrage said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
Another dreadful interview by this horrible person. Shame, I thought the BBC coverage of this game otherwise was faultless.
Didn’t see it ... what happened? She’s updated this ....
I wonder if she’s used any of these words on her post match stitch ups, I mean interviews.
What a fuckwit. She tries to embarrass and disgrace with her toxic interviews and then comes out with this tripe. Your job isn't to be a cunting troll.
An honest set of questions for the woke thought police, because with all that is going on in the world I don't get why on earth Ms McLaughlan getting upset is a major news story?
If a male Rugby fan finds an interview by a female interviewer to be "Toxic", "embarrassing", "disgraceful" or "appalling" are they allowed to say so in a free society?
Would it be okay for a male Rugby fan to say that of an interview by a male interviewer?
Would it be okay for a female Rugby fan to say that of an interview by a female interviewer?
Would it be okay for a female Rugby fan to say that of an interview by a male interviewer?
What about criticism of a female politician by a male or a female voter?
Are we now no longer to criticise any highly-paid professionals?I'm confused that people criticising Ms McLaughlan is an issue at all. None of the quoted words she is complaining and upset about as far as I can see constitutes "abuse."
And trust me, I've seen enough of the world to loathe to the core of my being abuse done by some men to women.
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@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib Neither try should have stood as the brilliant Nigel Owens explains clearly and simply here:
There has been a huge debate over the scores by Josh Adams and Liam Williams in the Triple Crown-clinching victory at the Principality Stadium
Nigel Owens believes neither of Wales’ first two tries in their Triple Crown-clinching victory over England should have stood. There was huge controversy over the first-half touchdowns from Josh Adams and Liam Williams during the 40-24 win for Wayne Pivac’s men at the Principality Stadium.
Now World Cup final referee Owens has delivered his verdict on both of them.
The first came on 16 minutes when fly-half Dan Biggar put in a pinpoint cross-kick for winger Adams to score out on the left.
That provoked a furious response from England captain Owen Farrell who argued with referee Pascal Gauzere that his team hadn’t been given sufficient time to re-set after Farrell had passed on a warning to them about too many penalties.
But Gauzere rejected Farrell’s complaints and awarded the try.
Giving his thoughts, Welshman Owens said: “It’s an interesting one.
“The referee clearly says ‘Time on’, so then Biggar is quite entitled to do what he does quickly.
“But I think Owen Farrell’s point here is correct.
“If you are asking the captain to speak to his team, I certainly wouldn’t restart time until I have given them time to line up in defence.
“The only reason they are in a huddle under the posts is you have told the captain to speak to his players and he puts time off for them to do that.
“So, you can’t put time back on then while they are still in the huddle.
“You are not giving them the time to line up to defend. It’s an unfair advantage.
“I would have allowed them to reset before I put time on. It’s only fair that you do that because you have asked them to go in the huddle in the first place.”
The second contentious Wales try came on 29 minutes when the officials decided there had not been a knock on by Louis Rees-Zammit ahead of full-back Liam Williams touching down.
But Owens views the incident in a different light.
“It was definitely a knock on,” he said, elaborating on the points he made on S4C.
“You see situations sometimes where a player loses control of a ball and then kicks it before it hits the ground. Well, that’s still classed as a knock on.
“What the law says is if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else.
“So, in this case, Rees-Zammit definitely touches the ball and it travels forward on to his calf, then goes backwards and then comes off an England player.
“So it has travelled forward off his hand first and he fails to regain possession of it, which means it’s a knock on.
“If it hits his hand and goes backwards, then it’s play on.
“But it hits his hand, the ball is still travelling forward and then it hits his calf and goes backwards.
“So, in law, he loses control of the ball forward and then fails to regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else, so it’s a knock on.
“If anybody wants an answer on it, look at Rees-Zammit’s face when they award the try.
“It’s 100 per cent a knock on.
Listening to the TMO, he says he doesn’t see the ball go forward.
“That sounds to me like he doesn’t think the ball touched the hand.
“But when you look at it, it has definitely touched Rees-Zammit’s hand.
“If you lose control of the ball forward, you must regain possession of it for it not to be a knock on.
“It’s irrelevant that it’s gone backwards off his calf. The fact is it’s gone forward first before that. That is the key in that decision.
“Even if it went laterally down, it’s a knock on.”
Owens concluded: “So, to me, those two tries shouldn’t stand.”
Owens doesn't say the first try shouldn't have stood - he says that he would have refereed it differently. Those are different things. He actually says Biggar is entitled to kick for the try. I don't disagree the ref made a mess of it, but England contributed to it too. If I was May on the left wing of be furious at my teammates for lack of attention.
For the second one, Nige has just got the rule wrong. It talks about loss of posession, not loss of control - different things. Don't know why he works make that mistake, enjoying retirement I guess.
Interesting. Reading his comments this is the key one for me (although he took a while to get there):
So, in law, he loses control of the ball forward and then fails to regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else, so it’s a knock on
If that's the rule, then I think it's probably a knock on. However, this makes me immediately think of a situation where a player loses control forward, but then before it hits the ground he tries to regain possession but ends up batting it backwards before it hits the ground. Under Nige's interpretation, would this be a knock on. He lost control forward and then doesn't regain control before it hits the ground (even though the ball is moving backward immediately before contact).
To my mind IF the ball, when it came off LRZ's calf, had travelled 5 yards backwards and then bounced there'd have been no knock on.
In this case he first nudges the ball forward at the goal line end of the five yard line bissecting the 22 line. After the ball hits his calf it hits the leg of an English player about one metre closer to the goal line than the end of said five yard line. So between his first touch and contact with something else, it travelled one metre forward.
No way it can be construed as anything but a knock on.
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@pakman said in NH International Rugby:
@junior said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib said in NH International Rugby:
@sparky said in NH International Rugby:
@gibbonrib Neither try should have stood as the brilliant Nigel Owens explains clearly and simply here:
There has been a huge debate over the scores by Josh Adams and Liam Williams in the Triple Crown-clinching victory at the Principality Stadium
Nigel Owens believes neither of Wales’ first two tries in their Triple Crown-clinching victory over England should have stood. There was huge controversy over the first-half touchdowns from Josh Adams and Liam Williams during the 40-24 win for Wayne Pivac’s men at the Principality Stadium.
Now World Cup final referee Owens has delivered his verdict on both of them.
The first came on 16 minutes when fly-half Dan Biggar put in a pinpoint cross-kick for winger Adams to score out on the left.
That provoked a furious response from England captain Owen Farrell who argued with referee Pascal Gauzere that his team hadn’t been given sufficient time to re-set after Farrell had passed on a warning to them about too many penalties.
But Gauzere rejected Farrell’s complaints and awarded the try.
Giving his thoughts, Welshman Owens said: “It’s an interesting one.
“The referee clearly says ‘Time on’, so then Biggar is quite entitled to do what he does quickly.
“But I think Owen Farrell’s point here is correct.
“If you are asking the captain to speak to his team, I certainly wouldn’t restart time until I have given them time to line up in defence.
“The only reason they are in a huddle under the posts is you have told the captain to speak to his players and he puts time off for them to do that.
“So, you can’t put time back on then while they are still in the huddle.
“You are not giving them the time to line up to defend. It’s an unfair advantage.
“I would have allowed them to reset before I put time on. It’s only fair that you do that because you have asked them to go in the huddle in the first place.”
The second contentious Wales try came on 29 minutes when the officials decided there had not been a knock on by Louis Rees-Zammit ahead of full-back Liam Williams touching down.
But Owens views the incident in a different light.
“It was definitely a knock on,” he said, elaborating on the points he made on S4C.
“You see situations sometimes where a player loses control of a ball and then kicks it before it hits the ground. Well, that’s still classed as a knock on.
“What the law says is if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else.
“So, in this case, Rees-Zammit definitely touches the ball and it travels forward on to his calf, then goes backwards and then comes off an England player.
“So it has travelled forward off his hand first and he fails to regain possession of it, which means it’s a knock on.
“If it hits his hand and goes backwards, then it’s play on.
“But it hits his hand, the ball is still travelling forward and then it hits his calf and goes backwards.
“So, in law, he loses control of the ball forward and then fails to regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else, so it’s a knock on.
“If anybody wants an answer on it, look at Rees-Zammit’s face when they award the try.
“It’s 100 per cent a knock on.
Listening to the TMO, he says he doesn’t see the ball go forward.
“That sounds to me like he doesn’t think the ball touched the hand.
“But when you look at it, it has definitely touched Rees-Zammit’s hand.
“If you lose control of the ball forward, you must regain possession of it for it not to be a knock on.
“It’s irrelevant that it’s gone backwards off his calf. The fact is it’s gone forward first before that. That is the key in that decision.
“Even if it went laterally down, it’s a knock on.”
Owens concluded: “So, to me, those two tries shouldn’t stand.”
Owens doesn't say the first try shouldn't have stood - he says that he would have refereed it differently. Those are different things. He actually says Biggar is entitled to kick for the try. I don't disagree the ref made a mess of it, but England contributed to it too. If I was May on the left wing of be furious at my teammates for lack of attention.
For the second one, Nige has just got the rule wrong. It talks about loss of posession, not loss of control - different things. Don't know why he works make that mistake, enjoying retirement I guess.
Interesting. Reading his comments this is the key one for me (although he took a while to get there):
So, in law, he loses control of the ball forward and then fails to regain possession of it before it touches the ground or anybody else, so it’s a knock on
If that's the rule, then I think it's probably a knock on. However, this makes me immediately think of a situation where a player loses control forward, but then before it hits the ground he tries to regain possession but ends up batting it backwards before it hits the ground. Under Nige's interpretation, would this be a knock on. He lost control forward and then doesn't regain control before it hits the ground (even though the ball is moving backward immediately before contact).
To my mind IF the ball, when it came off LRZ's calf, had travelled 5 yards backwards and then bounced there'd have been no knock on.
In this case he first nudges the ball forward at the goal line end of the five yard line bissecting the 22 line. After the ball hits his calf it hits the leg of an English player about one metre closer to the goal line than the end of said five yard line. So between his first touch and contact with something else, it travelled one metre forward.
No way it can be construed as anything but a knock on.
Fuck me everyone
let's draw a line and just concentrate on the important stuff
TRIPLE FUCKING CROWN
