The GOAT
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Man I hate that I've never heard of some of the legendary names being thrown out here
When Susan Devoy was dominant in the 1980s she was always compared to McKay.
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain?
Is that a serious question???
Yeah - the problem is they didn't get to compete against each other, but Wilt Chamberlain dominated the sport when he played.
Nah - the real problem is that Wilt just wasn't a winner. He might have dominated the stat line, but using that to justify GOAT status is like saying Doug Howlett is our best ever AB.
Wilt was a physical freak. Put up LUDICROUS stats, though many players did back then (Oscar, Russel etc).
But he didn't win until 67, when he was surrounded by 3 future GOF'ers, and he had dialled his scoring back to just 18ppg in the finals. He only won again in 72 as a 35yr old when they smacked the Knicks 4-1 (funny to think that that series also had Pat Riley v Phil Jackson!)
My NBA GOAT ladder is:
- MJ
- LeBron
- Kareem
- Russell
5-7. Magic/Bird/Wilt - Alex Caruso
- Tim Duncan
- Hakeem
A better debate than MJ v Wilt is Russell v Wilt - some interesting stats :
- Record in the Decisive Game Seven Games:
- Chamberlain: 4-5
- Russell: 10-0
- Record When Facing Elimination
- Chamberlain: 10-11
- Russell: 16-2
Clearly teammates play a factor, those Celtics teams were stacked. But still not good reading.
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@voodoo the talent around Russell was very good as well - Havlicek, Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Heinsohn, Sharman.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The GOAT:
@voodoo the talent around Russell was very good as well - Havlicek, Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Heinsohn, Sharman.
the talent around Brady has been pretty impressive as well - not least Bill Belichek.
This is a great thread, by the way.
I'm also voting against Usain Bolt (and any track/field, or cycling to be fair), as PED are just too likely.
https://medium.com/@tomnew/usain-bolt-lance-armstrong-and-the-duck-test-303b7b891e7e
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@ACT-Crusader said in The GOAT:
@voodoo the talent around Russell was very good as well - Havlicek, Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Heinsohn, Sharman.
Hey, I did say they were "stacked"!
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Clearly teammates play a factor, those Celtics teams were stacked. But still not good reading.
Agree that in team sports your success is dependant on their impact. I defer to people with vastly better knowledge (and interest)) than mine in basketball, but it seems to me than Wilt scored like there was a rule he had to be given the ball.
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Wilt was just so physically dominant in his era compared to other players. Like George Mikan a generation earlier. But basketball is a team game.
Same with Shaq, his worst enemy was himself. If he dedicated himself to his training, and learned to co-exist with Kobe, they could have beaten MJ's ring count
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My NBA GOAT ladder is:
- MJ
- LeBron
- Kareem
- Russell
5-7. Magic/Bird/Wilt
8. Alex Caruso - Tim Duncan
- Hakeem
One of these things is not like the others.
😎 checking to see if anyone actually read anything I post...
I just went straight to Tim Duncan at 9 and virtually tipped a beer on your head
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Someone mentioned he didn’t bowl which is possibly a fair call.....but an all rounder would need a sub 25 bowling average and a 50 plus batting average to even warrant a comparison in my opinion.
No one has really come close to that, ever.
Perhaps a specialist bowler would need a substantial career averaging under 15 or even 10 ?
Pretty close - yet seldom mentioned
https://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/45789.html
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If we’re throwing some female GOATs around then Birgit Fischer has to be mentioned.
Kayak gold medals at every Olympics she competed at from 1980 to 2004. Probably would have won in 1984 but for the commie boycott.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The GOAT:
@voodoo the talent around Russell was very good as well - Havlicek, Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Heinsohn, Sharman.
the talent around Brady has been pretty impressive as well - not least Bill Belichek.
This is a great thread, by the way.
> I'm also voting against Usain Bolt (and any track/field, or cycling to be fair), as PED are just too likely.
https://medium.com/@tomnew/usain-bolt-lance-armstrong-and-the-duck-test-303b7b891e7e
Agreed - that list of the top 40 fastest times ever run, with the caught-dopers marked in red, is exactly what I was hoping to see when I clicked on that link.
It just seems so obvious that the 100m sprint is actually a background prize for chemists, "best at doping, and hiding doping" -
@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
My NBA GOAT ladder is:
- MJ
- LeBron
- Kareem
- Russell
5-7. Magic/Bird/Wilt
- Alex Caruso
- Tim Duncan
- Hakeem
One of these things is not like the others.
😎 checking to see if anyone actually read anything I post...
I just went straight to Tim Duncan at 9 and virtually tipped a beer on your head
Where do you have him? Even a diehard Spurs fan like you couldn't have him higher than 8th which is where I have once you ditch the Bald Eagle?
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@ACT-Crusader said in The GOAT:
@voodoo the talent around Russell was very good as well - Havlicek, Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Heinsohn, Sharman.
the talent around Brady has been pretty impressive as well - not least Bill Belichek.
This is a great thread, by the way.
> I'm also voting against Usain Bolt (and any track/field, or cycling to be fair), as PED are just too likely.
https://medium.com/@tomnew/usain-bolt-lance-armstrong-and-the-duck-test-303b7b891e7e
Agreed - that list of the top 40 fastest times ever run, with the caught-dopers marked in red, is exactly what I was hoping to see when I clicked on that link.
It just seems so obvious that the 100m sprint is actually a background prize for chemists, "best at doping, and hiding doping"Have to rule out all cyclists as well, because they all dope
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@mariner4life said in The GOAT:
@voodoo 5
Bah, come on, he wasn't better than Magic or Bird! You could convince me that he was better than Wilt, that's it. No way he's higher than 7
What I would say, is that anyone who has Kobe ahead of him (and there are PLENTY) is a fool.
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People only rate Bird so high because he is white, and they need someone to cling on to
Birgit Fischer - Wikipedia
