The GOAT
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Someone mentioned he didn’t bowl which is possibly a fair call.....but an all rounder would need a sub 25 bowling average and a 50 plus batting average to even warrant a comparison in my opinion.
No one has really come close to that, ever.
Perhaps a specialist bowler would need a substantial career averaging under 15 or even 10 ?
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Someone mentioned he didn’t bowl which is possibly a fair call.....but an all rounder would need a sub 25 bowling average and a 50 plus batting average to even warrant a comparison in my opinion.
No one has really come close to that, ever.
Perhaps a specialist bowler would need a substantial career averaging under 15 or even 10 ?
cough Kyle Jamieson cough
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain?
Is that a serious question???
Yeah - the problem is they didn't get to compete against each other, but Wilt Chamberlain dominated the sport when he played.
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Man I hate that I've never heard of some of the legendary names being thrown out here
Google Mike Hailwood.
Apart with being one of the top 1-2 motorcycle racers ever, he won the George Medal for rescuing Clay Regazonni from a burning F1 car. When his overalls caught fire, he got a marshall to put them out with a fire extinguisher and went straight back to the burring car...
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@delicatessen said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Someone mentioned he didn’t bowl which is possibly a fair call.....but an all rounder would need a sub 25 bowling average and a 50 plus batting average to even warrant a comparison in my opinion.
No one has really come close to that, ever.
Perhaps a specialist bowler would need a substantial career averaging under 15 or even 10 ?
cough Kyle Jamieson cough
Must be something in the name.....Kyle Mayers will be keen to try and maintain his career batting average of 250
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@mariner4life and Neon Deion even had a pretty sweet Nike shoe line too!
To me NFL is similar to rugby - a game for all shapes and sizes and the ultimate in team sports despite the added pressure in certain positions (QB, halfback, 1st 5).
I agree with most that Brady is brilliant but having watched his whole career you know a lot of things had to go right around him for him to shine. This is similar to MJ when he was winning championships.
The thing with MJ though is how dominant he was earlier in his career when he had next to no help and yet in a 20+ team league was still able to get deep into the playoffs.
McCaw is in that class too because even though we weren’t winning world cups early in his career we were winning other stuff and McCaw was a standout and my biased view, he could’ve won more World player of the year awards. Yes he had Carter and others but he still stood out in a team game.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The GOAT:
@mariner4life and Neon Deion even had a pretty sweet Nike shoe line too!
To me NFL is similar to rugby - a game for all shapes and sizes and the ultimate in team sports despite the added pressure in certain positions (QB, halfback, 1st 5).
I agree with most that Brady is brilliant but having watched his whole career you know a lot of things had to go right around him for him to shine. This is similar to MJ when he was winning championships.
The thing with MJ though is how dominant he was earlier in his career when he had next to no help and yet in a 20+ team league was still able to get deep into the playoffs.
McCaw is in that class too because even though we weren’t winning world cups early in his career we were winning other stuff and McCaw was a standout and my biased view, he could’ve won more World player of the year awards. Yes he had Carter and others but he still stood out in a team game.
i agree with everything here and would like to subscribe to your newsletter
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This post is deleted!
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Man I hate that I've never heard of some of the legendary names being thrown out here
When Susan Devoy was dominant in the 1980s she was always compared to McKay.
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain?
Is that a serious question???
Yeah - the problem is they didn't get to compete against each other, but Wilt Chamberlain dominated the sport when he played.
Nah - the real problem is that Wilt just wasn't a winner. He might have dominated the stat line, but using that to justify GOAT status is like saying Doug Howlett is our best ever AB.
Wilt was a physical freak. Put up LUDICROUS stats, though many players did back then (Oscar, Russel etc).
But he didn't win until 67, when he was surrounded by 3 future GOF'ers, and he had dialled his scoring back to just 18ppg in the finals. He only won again in 72 as a 35yr old when they smacked the Knicks 4-1 (funny to think that that series also had Pat Riley v Phil Jackson!)
My NBA GOAT ladder is:
- MJ
- LeBron
- Kareem
- Russell
5-7. Magic/Bird/Wilt - Alex Caruso
- Tim Duncan
- Hakeem
A better debate than MJ v Wilt is Russell v Wilt - some interesting stats :
- Record in the Decisive Game Seven Games:
- Chamberlain: 4-5
- Russell: 10-0
- Record When Facing Elimination
- Chamberlain: 10-11
- Russell: 16-2
Clearly teammates play a factor, those Celtics teams were stacked. But still not good reading.
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@voodoo the talent around Russell was very good as well - Havlicek, Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Heinsohn, Sharman.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The GOAT:
@voodoo the talent around Russell was very good as well - Havlicek, Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Heinsohn, Sharman.
the talent around Brady has been pretty impressive as well - not least Bill Belichek.
This is a great thread, by the way.
I'm also voting against Usain Bolt (and any track/field, or cycling to be fair), as PED are just too likely.
https://medium.com/@tomnew/usain-bolt-lance-armstrong-and-the-duck-test-303b7b891e7e
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@ACT-Crusader said in The GOAT:
@voodoo the talent around Russell was very good as well - Havlicek, Cousy, Sam and KC Jones, Heinsohn, Sharman.
Hey, I did say they were "stacked"!
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Clearly teammates play a factor, those Celtics teams were stacked. But still not good reading.
Agree that in team sports your success is dependant on their impact. I defer to people with vastly better knowledge (and interest)) than mine in basketball, but it seems to me than Wilt scored like there was a rule he had to be given the ball.
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Wilt was just so physically dominant in his era compared to other players. Like George Mikan a generation earlier. But basketball is a team game.
Same with Shaq, his worst enemy was himself. If he dedicated himself to his training, and learned to co-exist with Kobe, they could have beaten MJ's ring count
