Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
-
All of the concerns about selections and game plan really came to a head in this match. Argentina just watched the RWC semi and replicated what England did in the hope we hadn't learnt anything from that, which was evident in the way we've played this year.
We had no answers and once again just relied on individual brilliance to try and get us out of a hole. That doesn't work against an organised defense these days, you have to actually do some hard work to create a bit of space for the likes of Clarke and Beauden.
I still can't get my head around Foster getting the top job when we have blokes like Rennie and Robertson in the mix. You just cannot tell me Robertson wouldn't get more out of this group of players than Foster. Honestly the mind boggles.
Anyway some further random thoughts:
- the loose trio mix is just so obviously wrong it hurts. Akira, Cane, Sotutu. End of story. Idiot selections.
- as above we actually need to pick players that can match up physically in the early exchanges. And then implement a game plan around that; we are simply not going to win the game in the first 40, we should be setting the foundation with good aggressive forward play to generate space for our backs later in the game. This is just rugby 101 surely.
- Cane is a bloke you would follow into the trenches, but his decision making has left a lot to be desired so far. The quick tap Weber took was a stupid play, but he was getting no direction from the captain. I still think he's the right man for the job but he has a bit to learn.
- Mo'unga again struggled and made errors when under pressure. It's a recurring theme with him unfortunately. A rock star on the front foot or in broken play, but against a well organised and aggressive defense he becomes a possum in the headlights.
There's not actually much more to be said about this game that hasn't been said in the previous weeks. The All Blacks had gone stale under Hansen and we decided to go for continuity with Foster. It's going to be a rough couple of years to say the least.
-
I'm not buying the notion that we can't field a team to win regularly. The rugby talent bit isn't a problem, surely. I've got no issues with the personnel in the playing squad. Good lads.
Now I can't decide if we are arrogant or dumb with the same old tactics we've dished up over about 3 and a bit years.
I've been convincing myself of the "powder dry" theory since 2017 and I've gone mad waiting for it.
There's nothing fucking there!?
Flat backline fucked over numerous times by rush defence.
After 3 back and fro's, put in a chip kick that 50% of the time results in a try saving tackle down the other fucking end!
Tons of one offs and 2 offs that barely reach the advantage- thanks hagrid.
Kicking so much goddamn ball away and not even having a Habana like chasing.
Never going one off from a ruck, (except chasing today when it worked!)
Never any audacious moves like that tana, Cully, jonah, pod , lineout extravaganza that time against yellow.
A single focussed reliance on a Dagg or a Reiko, or a Caleb to break a line and then support play makes it a winning strategy. Gets fucked over if old mate is determined to make his tackle - nevermind, "we'll shovel it along the other way and give Beaudy a chance against a set defence."
A visible lack of any ability to change a tactic and work a specific strategy for 10 minutes at least. Just when you know we must hang onto the ball, someone will " express themselves" and kick it. We'll get ball from a set piece and in two run of the mill phases we'll be back to shovel ball and relying on a missed tackle.
It's fucken turgid, and I'm sick of it.
I'm resigned to speaking like a cock - it's like those fluffybunnies, collectively, have little respect for the game. Trot out the same old shit and hope for the inevitable individual brilliance or, better yet, Laura to make the opposition try too hard.
I hate saying this but we play like we know everything about the game. Like we don't fully respect the game and all it's diversity. The Hanson/Foster way is outdated, too limited, but mostly, doesn't have Richie FUCKING McCaw in it!!!
The players are more than adequate.
We got done by a new coach making his own decisions and reinvigorating his team with a fresh enthusiasm. Our old coach is rehashing a failed strategy and the players are looking completely unenthused by all of it. Fuck we've looked bad over the last 2 weeks.
And the discipline?
Fuck me that must be a sign of a lack of focus and task clarity. That an organisation like the All Blacks can't work out face slaps and ruck supermans leaves me wondering what kind of a slack shit show is going on in these pampered facilities.
Totally schooled by the Argentinians on how to conduct yourself on a test rugby field!
The fucken shame in that!
The real question is how long do we have to pretend before we usher in Scott as a breathe of fresh air and a new direction - with a fond departure to the 2015 win and the first test against the Lions in 2017.
I like you fozzie, and I greatly admired your play for Waikato, but mate somehow, you've used 5 games to fully show me your hand, and mate, you're bust!
Fuck this I'm getting drunk...where were you when the All Blacks looked like Southland...?
-
@No-Quarter 100%, only silver lining is that we are losing straight away under Foster and not getting lucky. At least we have time to fix it, hopefully.
-
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
I can't speak for all of you as a collective
but some of you may be egging it a bit too much in terms of this game being a disaster beyond all disasters. The fact is, this has happened before (RWC2019 SF) and will happen again.EDIT: I mean in terms of this being rugby. You have to accept losses. Just makes it hard for you bastards you only lose occasionally.
Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
I've said it a few times the last month, but I think as fans you guys occasionally get carried away with the freakish skills some of your guys possess, and think that is the difference i.e. that they're just better as a group than everyone. Really, its just that the fifteen individuals you put on the park at one time (fourteen is S Barrett is playing ;)) are probably better players than the other blokes, but what is that saying about Champion Team versus Champion Individuals? Doesn't always work.
@mariner4life - in the same period - has pointed out a few times that when under the pump, the ABs haven't really looked that special. Nothing more than good even in Sydney - it was either dinky kicks breaking things open for you + counterattack (26-0 at halftime), or getting whacked (first part of the second half).
I count one set piece try in the period - and that was a 5 metre scrum where our flanker didn't get off in time at ANZ, leaving the wing stranded.
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
BUT these skills and fitness aren't really built around any structure besides "You're the Fucking All Blacks, go out and win".
Looking at the last few weeks, maybe the depth isn't as good as everyone thinks. I'll talk about the tight five, because that's my jam.
Big concern for the Wallabies was second row in particular, but we generally stood up physically with Philip, LSL, and even Simmons. On the flipside, guys like Tuipolotou have not shown up with consistency. Whitelock is still a stalwart but looked a helluva lot better with BBBR (as would any of us!)
Your props are fine around the park but getting a bit of a lesson at scrum time, as a collective - that also comes back to your second row being a little frail. The combination there is important, and what stands out is you're not learning on the run. A couple of times the Wallabies put the ABs under pressure and you didn't adjust.
Must say that Coles is a fuckwit who throws his toys when he's not allowed to just swan around on the wing while everyone else does the hard yards (like Codie Taylor).
The backs are going through the motions, and look it isn't park footy and you can't always have a highly structured plan, but "play what's in front of you" has dangers of its own, especially when half the backline changes in the space of 2 weeks from A to B and back again.
Maybe making 9+ changes two weeks in a row wasn't the right decision. Maybe the selections and combinations are just wrong.
Regardless, you haven't really moved the needle in close to a decade, tactically speaking. It makes the ABs an easy target for coaches to plan for: front up physically, don't miss your tackles, and don't give away cheap ball. Of course, that relies on players executing and the Wallabies continue to be plagued by inconsistency.
Contrast Brisbane and Wellington versus ANZ and Auckland from a Wallabies point of view. Chalk and cheese in terms of execution.
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
-
-
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
I can't speak for all of you as a collective ;), but some of you may be egging it a bit too much in terms of this game being a disaster beyond all disasters. The fact is, this has happened before (RWC2019 SF) and will happen again.
Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
I've said it a few times the last month, but I think as fans you guys occasionally get carried away with the freakish skills some of your guys possess, and think that is the difference i.e. that they're just better as a group than everyone. Really, its just that the fifteen individuals you put on the park at one time (fourteen is S Barrett is playing ;)) are probably better players than the other blokes, but what is that saying about Champion Team versus Champion Individuals? Doesn't always work.
@mariner4life - in the same period - has pointed out a few times that when under the pump, the ABs haven't really looked that special. Nothing more than good even in Sydney - it was either dinky kicks breaking things open for you + counterattack (26-0 at halftime), or getting whacked (first part of the second half).
I count one set piece try in the period - and that was a 5 metre scrum where our flanker didn't get off in time at ANZ, leaving the wing stranded.
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
BUT these skills and fitness aren't really built around any structure besides "You're the Fucking All Blacks, go out and win".
Looking at the last few weeks, maybe the depth isn't as good as everyone thinks. I'll talk about the tight five, because that's my jam.
Big concern for the Wallabies was second row in particular, but we generally stood up physically with Philip, LSL, and even Simmons. On the flipside, guys like Tuipolotou have not shown up with consistency. Whitelock is still a stalwart but looked a helluva lot better with BBBR (as would any of us!)
Your props are fine around the park but getting a bit of a lesson at scrum time, as a collective - that also comes back to your second row being a little frail. The combination there is important, and what stands out is you're not learning on the run. A couple of times the Wallabies put the ABs under pressure and you didn't adjust.
Must say that Coles is a fuckwit who throws his toys when he's not allowed to just swan around on the wing while everyone else does the hard yards (like Codie Taylor).
The backs are going through the motions, and look it isn't park footy and you can't always have a highly structured plan, but "play what's in front of you" has dangers of its own, especially when half the backline changes in the space of 2 weeks from A to B and back again.
Maybe making 9+ changes two weeks in a row wasn't the right decision. Maybe the selections and combinations are just wrong.
Regardless, you haven't really moved the needle in close to a decade, tactically speaking. It makes the ABs an easy target for coaches to plan for: front up physically, don't miss your tackles, and don't give away cheap ball. Of course, that relies on players executing and the Wallabies continue to be plagued by inconsistency.
Contrast Brisbane and Wellington versus ANZ and Auckland from a Wallabies point of view. Chalk and cheese in terms of execution.
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
Brilliant analysis. Well done.
We used to be always one step ahead in our thinking and game plans. Where the fuck had the innovation gone?
-
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Siam said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Fuck this I'm getting drunk...where were you when the All Blacks looked like Southland...?
Listening to my wife snore on my shoulder after she fell asleep when we went behind.
I love that reply mate!😁
-
@Gunner said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
I can't speak for all of you as a collective ;), but some of you may be egging it a bit too much in terms of this game being a disaster beyond all disasters. The fact is, this has happened before (RWC2019 SF) and will happen again.
Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
I've said it a few times the last month, but I think as fans you guys occasionally get carried away with the freakish skills some of your guys possess, and think that is the difference i.e. that they're just better as a group than everyone. Really, its just that the fifteen individuals you put on the park at one time (fourteen is S Barrett is playing ;)) are probably better players than the other blokes, but what is that saying about Champion Team versus Champion Individuals? Doesn't always work.
@mariner4life - in the same period - has pointed out a few times that when under the pump, the ABs haven't really looked that special. Nothing more than good even in Sydney - it was either dinky kicks breaking things open for you + counterattack (26-0 at halftime), or getting whacked (first part of the second half).
I count one set piece try in the period - and that was a 5 metre scrum where our flanker didn't get off in time at ANZ, leaving the wing stranded.
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
BUT these skills and fitness aren't really built around any structure besides "You're the Fucking All Blacks, go out and win".
Looking at the last few weeks, maybe the depth isn't as good as everyone thinks. I'll talk about the tight five, because that's my jam.
Big concern for the Wallabies was second row in particular, but we generally stood up physically with Philip, LSL, and even Simmons. On the flipside, guys like Tuipolotou have not shown up with consistency. Whitelock is still a stalwart but looked a helluva lot better with BBBR (as would any of us!)
Your props are fine around the park but getting a bit of a lesson at scrum time, as a collective - that also comes back to your second row being a little frail. The combination there is important, and what stands out is you're not learning on the run. A couple of times the Wallabies put the ABs under pressure and you didn't adjust.
Must say that Coles is a fuckwit who throws his toys when he's not allowed to just swan around on the wing while everyone else does the hard yards (like Codie Taylor).
The backs are going through the motions, and look it isn't park footy and you can't always have a highly structured plan, but "play what's in front of you" has dangers of its own, especially when half the backline changes in the space of 2 weeks from A to B and back again.
Maybe making 9+ changes two weeks in a row wasn't the right decision. Maybe the selections and combinations are just wrong.
Regardless, you haven't really moved the needle in close to a decade, tactically speaking. It makes the ABs an easy target for coaches to plan for: front up physically, don't miss your tackles, and don't give away cheap ball. Of course, that relies on players executing and the Wallabies continue to be plagued by inconsistency.
Contrast Brisbane and Wellington versus ANZ and Auckland from a Wallabies point of view. Chalk and cheese in terms of execution.
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
Brilliant analysis. Well done.
We used to be always one step ahead in our thinking and game plans. Where the fuck had the innovation gone?
Wherever Wayne Smith is at
-
That’s good analysis from NTA. It reminds me of 1999 when NZ had talent to burn and thought they just had to turn up to win. ‘Just pass the ball to Jonah’. iIt’s also a lack of respect for the opposition and too much belief in their own myth. Most of all, it’s poor leadership and coaching. Foster’s a dead man walking.
-
@Gunner said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
We used to be always one step ahead in our thinking and game plans. Where the fuck had the innovation gone?
I think it is because we have been winning, it usually takes failure to grow and we are now failing. I thought we started failing some time ago and the RWC semi should have triggered change, but 2 wins out of 5 and losing to the 10th ranked side in the world should be enough hopefully.
-
@Gunner said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Brilliant analysis. Well done.
Ta.
We used to be always one step ahead in our thinking and game plans. Where the fuck had the innovation gone?
Think back to 2007 and what happened immediately thereafter: No Fucking More.
The ABs from the top of NZ Rugby right down were sick of being called chokers and decided the pursuit of excellence was never ending; satisfaction was only achieved for periods of about 6 hours at a time, and only after holding a trophy. Interestingly, from all accounts it was very much like Steve Waugh's journey as a leader in Aussie Cricket. Line-in-the-sand stuff.
Now where are you? A lot of the guys from 2011 have moved on. McCaw didn't need to do much more than look at someone carrying on like a pelican to bring them in line. Can you say the same about Read? No, because he was a whiner unless he was winning.
I wouldn't call it complacency, but the fire has faded a little. You're victims of your own success in a way. I actually didn't rate Hansen as much of a coach tho he helped improved the numbers; fact was your opposition didn't really improve in the corresponding period
-
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Gunner said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
I can't speak for all of you as a collective ;), but some of you may be egging it a bit too much in terms of this game being a disaster beyond all disasters. The fact is, this has happened before (RWC2019 SF) and will happen again.
Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
I've said it a few times the last month, but I think as fans you guys occasionally get carried away with the freakish skills some of your guys possess, and think that is the difference i.e. that they're just better as a group than everyone. Really, its just that the fifteen individuals you put on the park at one time (fourteen is S Barrett is playing ;)) are probably better players than the other blokes, but what is that saying about Champion Team versus Champion Individuals? Doesn't always work.
@mariner4life - in the same period - has pointed out a few times that when under the pump, the ABs haven't really looked that special. Nothing more than good even in Sydney - it was either dinky kicks breaking things open for you + counterattack (26-0 at halftime), or getting whacked (first part of the second half).
I count one set piece try in the period - and that was a 5 metre scrum where our flanker didn't get off in time at ANZ, leaving the wing stranded.
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
BUT these skills and fitness aren't really built around any structure besides "You're the Fucking All Blacks, go out and win".
Looking at the last few weeks, maybe the depth isn't as good as everyone thinks. I'll talk about the tight five, because that's my jam.
Big concern for the Wallabies was second row in particular, but we generally stood up physically with Philip, LSL, and even Simmons. On the flipside, guys like Tuipolotou have not shown up with consistency. Whitelock is still a stalwart but looked a helluva lot better with BBBR (as would any of us!)
Your props are fine around the park but getting a bit of a lesson at scrum time, as a collective - that also comes back to your second row being a little frail. The combination there is important, and what stands out is you're not learning on the run. A couple of times the Wallabies put the ABs under pressure and you didn't adjust.
Must say that Coles is a fuckwit who throws his toys when he's not allowed to just swan around on the wing while everyone else does the hard yards (like Codie Taylor).
The backs are going through the motions, and look it isn't park footy and you can't always have a highly structured plan, but "play what's in front of you" has dangers of its own, especially when half the backline changes in the space of 2 weeks from A to B and back again.
Maybe making 9+ changes two weeks in a row wasn't the right decision. Maybe the selections and combinations are just wrong.
Regardless, you haven't really moved the needle in close to a decade, tactically speaking. It makes the ABs an easy target for coaches to plan for: front up physically, don't miss your tackles, and don't give away cheap ball. Of course, that relies on players executing and the Wallabies continue to be plagued by inconsistency.
Contrast Brisbane and Wellington versus ANZ and Auckland from a Wallabies point of view. Chalk and cheese in terms of execution.
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
Brilliant analysis. Well done.
We used to be always one step ahead in our thinking and game plans. Where the fuck had the innovation gone?
Wherever Wayne Smith is at
#tonybrown
-
@Kiwiwomble said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Gunner said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA As a neutral are we overreacting or were we really that shit?
I can't speak for all of you as a collective ;), but some of you may be egging it a bit too much in terms of this game being a disaster beyond all disasters. The fact is, this has happened before (RWC2019 SF) and will happen again.
Argentina won the way you always beat the All Blacks: minimise your errors, make your tackles, and don't take any shit at set piece.
I've said it a few times the last month, but I think as fans you guys occasionally get carried away with the freakish skills some of your guys possess, and think that is the difference i.e. that they're just better as a group than everyone. Really, its just that the fifteen individuals you put on the park at one time (fourteen is S Barrett is playing ;)) are probably better players than the other blokes, but what is that saying about Champion Team versus Champion Individuals? Doesn't always work.
@mariner4life - in the same period - has pointed out a few times that when under the pump, the ABs haven't really looked that special. Nothing more than good even in Sydney - it was either dinky kicks breaking things open for you + counterattack (26-0 at halftime), or getting whacked (first part of the second half).
I count one set piece try in the period - and that was a 5 metre scrum where our flanker didn't get off in time at ANZ, leaving the wing stranded.
That has been the AB game plan since Henry / McCaw left: defend, counterattack, and (occasionally) pull off your skills and fitness, complemented occasionally by the odd piece of streaky bullshit. And I'm not saying those skills and fitness aren't great, because the winning record over the last decade speaks for itself.
BUT these skills and fitness aren't really built around any structure besides "You're the Fucking All Blacks, go out and win".
Looking at the last few weeks, maybe the depth isn't as good as everyone thinks. I'll talk about the tight five, because that's my jam.
Big concern for the Wallabies was second row in particular, but we generally stood up physically with Philip, LSL, and even Simmons. On the flipside, guys like Tuipolotou have not shown up with consistency. Whitelock is still a stalwart but looked a helluva lot better with BBBR (as would any of us!)
Your props are fine around the park but getting a bit of a lesson at scrum time, as a collective - that also comes back to your second row being a little frail. The combination there is important, and what stands out is you're not learning on the run. A couple of times the Wallabies put the ABs under pressure and you didn't adjust.
Must say that Coles is a fuckwit who throws his toys when he's not allowed to just swan around on the wing while everyone else does the hard yards (like Codie Taylor).
The backs are going through the motions, and look it isn't park footy and you can't always have a highly structured plan, but "play what's in front of you" has dangers of its own, especially when half the backline changes in the space of 2 weeks from A to B and back again.
Maybe making 9+ changes two weeks in a row wasn't the right decision. Maybe the selections and combinations are just wrong.
Regardless, you haven't really moved the needle in close to a decade, tactically speaking. It makes the ABs an easy target for coaches to plan for: front up physically, don't miss your tackles, and don't give away cheap ball. Of course, that relies on players executing and the Wallabies continue to be plagued by inconsistency.
Contrast Brisbane and Wellington versus ANZ and Auckland from a Wallabies point of view. Chalk and cheese in terms of execution.
The most burning example of this was Caleb Clarke: breaks 8 tackles on his way to setting up a try in Auckland, but was well looked after tonight. Simple game, really.
Brilliant analysis. Well done.
We used to be always one step ahead in our thinking and game plans. Where the fuck had the innovation gone?
Wherever Wayne Smith is at
#tonybrown
He and Jamie come as a team
-
@Frank said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I am 100% supporting the Argies in 2 weeks.
I hope we lose and lose badly.
I want Foster gooooooooooooooooone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That’s idiotic.
-
Well done to the Argies. Brilliant!
I couldn’t comment until now as I was watching the game (and after) with a senior work colleague who kept commenting ‘well, you guys really suck, lucky this is a friendly’. The good news is that I finished the game without killing them.
There is too much bad news for one post. Simply put, we we’re comprehensively outplayed by the Argies. It was probably always going to happen one day, but its very 2020 that it happens this year.
It’s predictable too; none of these coaches (and perhaps the management team in general) would be selected by any other major nation as an assistant, let alone as the head coach. Those roosters are coming home and will take our record with it. Compare it to 2004 when we pried Smith off Northampton - this year we got back Mooar. Its fucking funny to think that this group of coaches would be good enough. Plumtree values physicality and picked 190cm locks. This was always coming.
Sotutu might be the only player who can sleep tonight but even he missed his opportunity to put them away by throwing a pass that just didn’t need to be thrown.
I honestly can't recall the All Blacks being beaten so comprehensively in my living memory. We have a strategic plan which is 7 years old and hasn’t changed despite a Lions loss and a semi-final exit. Now the 10th ranked team in the work can beat us using a ridiculously simple game plan: make your tackles and ride on the AB passive defense to get more than 15 points. Get that close and then let the passion take you over the line as they panic in the last 20.
What, and how many changes can and should we make to get past this absolute fucking shambles?
This was, as Fozzie basically accepted, basically the top team minus Ofa.
What a fucking disgrace.
