World Rugby Board elections
-
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo ahhhh right, so it's only for those that want to change country. It'd basically never happen then (unless it's someone going from a T2 to a T1) but it's an interesting thought.
That 24yo returning to his village in Samoa isn't going to be playing rugby for a living. After 3-5 years he'll be a long way behind others that are.
Yeah maybe. Who knows? But I don't see why we should (or could) stop someone who wanted to!
-
@junior said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
And to be completely clear, I'm not the one trying to make it harder for guys to go back and represent the PI nations - most of you seem to be of the opinion that you "make your bed, now lie in it".
I'm putting forward the position that this seems way too harsh, and there should be some leeway.
Residency is just one way to meet somewhere in the middle.
OK, fine. What about the other way around? Are you happy for the Bunce, Ieremia, Vidiri etc. scenarios to re-emerge?
What do you mean specifically?
To clarify my position, I'm ok with different rules applying for guys going from T1 to T2 than the other direction. As I said earlier, it's important to understand what the rules are actually there for. Who or what are they providing protection for? If the ultimate goal is strong rugby sides around the world, then let's aim for that. If the goal is equal opportunity for all players then maybe that's a different story.
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo ahhhh right, so it's only for those that want to change country. It'd basically never happen then (unless it's someone going from a T2 to a T1) but it's an interesting thought.
That 24yo returning to his village in Samoa isn't going to be playing rugby for a living. After 3-5 years he'll be a long way behind others that are.
Yeah maybe. Who knows? But I don't see why we should (or could) stop someone who wanted to!
I agree in that scenario, but what about the Tongan living in NZ who then decides he wants to represent NZ?
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
Other hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, schooled in NZ, plays an 8 game season for Samoa and stars. Now he's good, he declares his residence in Auckland to make money for the ABs.
Fast forward 4 years, he's not the cream of the crop any more, and solid squad player (somewhere outside the 23). Decides to cash in, so moves to London, declares through a grandparent he's now English.
Still happy with that scenario?
Edit: or England come knocking dangling fat cheques in front of him while he's playing for NZ...
I don't like it. International sport is one country, with difficulties in changing for a reason
-
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo ahhhh right, so it's only for those that want to change country. It'd basically never happen then (unless it's someone going from a T2 to a T1) but it's an interesting thought.
That 24yo returning to his village in Samoa isn't going to be playing rugby for a living. After 3-5 years he'll be a long way behind others that are.
Yeah maybe. Who knows? But I don't see why we should (or could) stop someone who wanted to!
I agree in that scenario, but what about the Tongan living in NZ who then decides he wants to represent NZ?
Whats the issue with him doing that if he has met the qualifying rules?
-
@nzzp said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
Other hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, schooled in NZ, plays an 8 game season for Samoa and stars. Now he's good, he declares his residence in Auckland to make money for the ABs.
Fast forward 4 years, he's not the cream of the crop any more, and solid squad player (somewhere outside the 23). Decides to cash in, so moves to London, declares through a grandparent he's now English.
Still happy with that scenario?
Edit: or England come knocking dangling fat cheques in front of him while he's playing for NZ...
I don't like it. International sport is one country, with difficulties in changing for a reason
That's obviously a reach, but I'm still actually ok with it. We live in an international world. No other business other than sport, restricts your rights to ply your trade like this. Fuck, even politics doesn't, though you might have to renounce citizenship or get rid of a passport.
-
-
-
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo no huge problem, but I thought it's the kind of thing that we're looking to try and discourage.
But why?
Bahrain’s Olympic track and field team is composed primarily of runners from Kenya and Ethiopia, along with more from Jamaica, Morocco and Nigeria. The team includes almost no runners born in Bahrain.How some Middle East countries are 'buying' Olympic medals
Countries like Qatar and Bahrain have been spending millions of dollars to buy top African athletes and win Olympic medals.
Eunice Kirwa won a silver medal in Sunday’s women’s marathon. She, too, was born in Kenya, but transferred her eligibility to Bahrain. Including past Olympics, every medal ever won by Bahrain in the Olympics was by individuals born in Africa.
-
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
-
@nzzp said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo no huge problem, but I thought it's the kind of thing that we're looking to try and discourage.
But why?
Bahrain’s Olympic track and field team is composed primarily of runners from Kenya and Ethiopia, along with more from Jamaica, Morocco and Nigeria. The team includes almost no runners born in Bahrain.
Countries like Qatar and Bahrain have been spending millions of dollars to buy top African athletes and win Olympic medals.
Eunice Kirwa won a silver medal in Sunday’s women’s marathon. She, too, was born in Kenya, but transferred her eligibility to Bahrain. Including past Olympics, every medal ever won by Bahrain in the Olympics was by individuals born in Africa.
Why is that directed at me???
I'm the guy trying to get the runners back to represent Jamaica!
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
As always, comes down to funding though right. There are pluses and minuses for both. Footballis a great example - players will almost always play for their home countries, far fewer "mercanaries". But then players are effectively compensated at the club level, which puts their loyalties first and foremost at the club, not the country.
Vunipola's comments are him being 100% pragmatic. Never bite the hands that feeds.
-
@MajorRage said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
As always, comes down to funding though right. There are pluses and minuses for both. Footballis a great example - players will almost always play for their home countries, far fewer "mercanaries". But then players are effectively compensated at the club level, which puts their loyalties first and foremost at the club, not the country.
Vunipola's comments are him being 100% pragmatic. Never bite the hands that feeds.
I have ZERO issue with a player chasing $ - provided they qualify for a country, they are good to go.
I just think that once that initial choice is made, it shouldn't be a lifetime decision, they should be allowed to move countries for whatever reason, and after fulfilling some set of quantifying requirements, should be allowed to chase a weirdly shaped ball around a rectangle field with a bunch of idiots cheering them on.
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@nzzp said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
Take the hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, goes to school in NZ, plays 15 games for the AB's, then decides at 24yrs old to return to his village in Samoa.
We have decided that he should no longer be able to practice his profession at the highest level, because why? What's the reason why he couldn't play for Samoa after a period of stand-down? What arw we protecting against ???
It's insane to me
Other hypothetical bloke, born in Samoa, schooled in NZ, plays an 8 game season for Samoa and stars. Now he's good, he declares his residence in Auckland to make money for the ABs.
Fast forward 4 years, he's not the cream of the crop any more, and solid squad player (somewhere outside the 23). Decides to cash in, so moves to London, declares through a grandparent he's now English.
Still happy with that scenario?
Edit: or England come knocking dangling fat cheques in front of him while he's playing for NZ...
I don't like it. International sport is one country, with difficulties in changing for a reason
That's obviously a reach, but I'm still actually ok with it. We live in an international world. No other business other than sport, restricts your rights to ply your trade like this. Fuck, even politics doesn't, though you might have to renounce citizenship or get rid of a passport.
There are no restrictions on plying their trade, just representing their country.
I really think this is only really an issue for the PIs and I'd agree that they are perhaps a special case in that it is impossible for the guys to ply their trade and make the sort of money they warrant and remain on island. Inevitably they will gravitate to places where they can earn good money. That issue isn't going away anytime soon, so it is about how to protect the international side of things for the PIs.
The idea of representing a T1 nation and then reverting to a T2 nation has merit but IMO it also has problems. The emotional side of me suggests it will encourage a mercenary attitude and potentially a dilution of the International game but perhaps that is a reach. The more rational side of me (yes, there is such a thing) feels that it may do more harm in the long run than good. Will it encourage more guys to opt for a T1 show knowing that if it doesn't work out there is a fallback option? Will it result in a dearth of younger talent available to the PIs and instead see their national teams full of over the hill guys that waltz back into the set up and block younger guys from coming through?
Then you have the qualification criteria. What will it entail? How long a residential qualification? Is residential qualification actually workable? How will the guys earn living if they have to be based on island? Would there be a stand down period between representing the T1 nation and starting for the T2? I guess there would have to be, but for how long? What about the guy who is playing for the T1 nation and they still want him but he decides he want out?
A great idea in principle but I'm not sure it's actually that workable.
-
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
-
@voodoo Fair enough. I don't disagree in principle, but I'd be lying if I said I don't like the one-country rule.
I agree it makes things difficult for T2 (especially as long as there is no revenue sharing) but there always be circular arguments. Centrally funded countries (like NZ) have zero incentive to fund building up players who won't play for NZ.
Who loses then?
-
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo said in World Rugby Board elections:
@Bones said in World Rugby Board elections:
@voodoo because "T2" nations get fucked over! Who in their right mind is going to return to Samoa at 24 when they can go to Ireland and spend 5 years qualifying for Ireland while earning hundreds of thousands of Euro?
No no no!!!
That is the status quo! That their players leave to play overseas, first at club level then often at international level - I'm just trying to find some avenue for T2 nations to field their best teams! Why is it detrimental to allow quality players to return and contribute to their homelands at some point?
Well no - under status quo, player that goes to Ireland and looks to play for Samoa et al still has an avenue back. You want to change it so that player now has to move to Samoa, not play professional rugby and wait 5 years.
No, only if they represent Ireland then want to switch should they have to fulfill that residency requirement back in Samoa. Seems weird to allow someone to move from Samoa to Ireland to play club and test footy, then to stay in Ireland but play for Samoa???
-
