Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,
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@BartMan Great writeup, great to see an old prop firing up the Commodore for a blast from the past.
I need to go back and watch the game again (probably aftre it's all done and dusted), but the lack of ball carrying was noticeable. We just got smashed over and over again, and read our passing between pods like a book.
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@BartMan said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
We need more beef on the paddock, our props need to physically, as well as skills wise and technique wise, outplay their opposites. Atu Moli sized beasts please. On props, where were all the big runs that Owen Franks wasn’t doing, done? Laulala was a Franks clone, no big bursts with ball in hand, steady in the scrum, made tackles. Lost 100 caps experience, gained….??
The coaches kept talking about mobility. I guess they got that from some of the props.
A guy that would have been useful is Charlie Faumuina. He's a better scrummager than most of the newer players. His workrate is as good as any prop.
No none comes close to his impact in general play though.He's 32 now. He would have been in his propping prime
I hope NZR did everything in their power to keep him. We invested in the development but didn't fully get the reward.. he left just as he should've been over taking Franks
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Yeah Afoa was incredible in the second half of his career
Money is obviously a huge factor but I wonder if Charlie would have stayed if he was getting more starts?
The problem with Franks is they never could use him on the bench. He was a starter or nothing. So Faumuina didn't get starts, despite being the better player for that last year of his NZ career
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@Duluth said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
Yeah Afoa was incredible in the second half of his career
Money is obviously a huge factor but I wonder if Charlie would have stayed if he was getting more starts?
The problem with Franks is they never could use him on the bench. He was a starter or nothing. So Faumuina didn't get starts, despite being the better player for that last year of his NZ career
This is an excellent point - had we invested in Charlie and started moving Franks out, we might have been in a much better position for this WC. I'll admit that the Lions kind of messed thins up, as players stuck around and the coaches stayed loyal. So, Kaino got kept around then moved on without a clear replacement being groomed - perhaps actually because he stuck around the replacement moved on. Same for Charlie.
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@gt12 said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
Kaino got kept around then moved on without a clear replacement being groomed
not for want of trying. Squire and Fifita were given every chance. The problem was we tried to replace arguably our best ever with the same player. That's not easy.
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@gt12 Kaino got kept around because there was no one close to him, even in his twilight years (arguably the only player close was Messam ... that will be
for some poster son here, but he was actually bloody good when Kaino was on his break). There was no point moving him on for an inferior player. -
fair point on Squire. The Fifita selection was persisted with too long though.
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We have to remember that Kaino matured into the role. The eternal hope is you find someone with the same attributes and they do the same.
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@antipodean said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
We have to remember that Kaino matured into the role. The eternal hope is you find someone with the same attributes and they do the same.
which i assume the hope with Fifita is/was
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@taniwharugby said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
@nzzp but our ball carriers were taking the ball 2m behind the gainline and getting stopped there...whereas the week before our forwards were taking the ball flat on the gainline, but Eddie was ready for us.
Front foot begets front foot...
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@pakman said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
@taniwharugby said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
@nzzp but our ball carriers were taking the ball 2m behind the gainline and getting stopped there...whereas the week before our forwards were taking the ball flat on the gainline, but Eddie was ready for us.
Front foot begets front foot...
We were deliberately passing deep behind the gainline (as @taniwharugby discussed earlier in the thread, or another thread) so we were never going to get front foot ball.
Even if we had identified it as way to beat the English defence before the game, during the game we should have adjusted it.
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@Nepia said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
@pakman said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
@taniwharugby said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
@nzzp but our ball carriers were taking the ball 2m behind the gainline and getting stopped there...whereas the week before our forwards were taking the ball flat on the gainline, but Eddie was ready for us.
Front foot begets front foot...
We were deliberately passing deep behind the gainline (as @taniwharugby discussed earlier in the thread, or another thread) so we were never going to get front foot ball.
Even if we had identified it as way to beat the English defence before the game, during the game we should have adjusted it.
I suspect the passing back idea is on basis of theory it then allows multiple options for interpassing to confuse/put doubt into the rush.
However, I find it hard to accept that we should do that off bad ball. To my mind pick and go or run close in and thereby commit defenders and then do it. Of course that also requires quick and robust clean outs, which without seeing the tape I can only imagine we struggled with.
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@pakman said in Muddled thoughts of a concussed prop,:
I suspect the passing back idea is on basis of theory it then allows multiple options for interpassing to confuse/put doubt into the rush.
odd thing was, it was at odds to how we played vs Ireland and thier rush defence...plus, Eddie had his team all on the same page, and seemingly, on the same page as our team too, they hit us perfectly behind the gainline so often, it was like he had our play book...
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@BartMan @nzzp I always wished I had a C-64. I unfortunately was saddled with a C-16, that beast the pre-dated the Vic20. The one where you chucked in a cassette tape, hit play, went outside to play sport for 20mins, came back in and typed "*16&"load"-run" or some shit, then had another 20mins outside to shoot hoops or kick the footie. When it was finally ready to play you got bored of it in about 12mins because it was so shite.
No wonder I never developed a love for video games.
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Muddled. Concussed. Prop.
Tautology in extremis. Good write up though 😀
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The playing too wide off the ruck and getting always hit behind the advantage line has already been covered in detail here,but it just seems to me the forwards weren't fully recovered from the previous week and weren't recovered mentally and physically for the onslaught. With the benefit of hindsight,the game was won by halftime against Ireland,perhaps even earlier subs in that game would of kept a bit of energy in the tank for the next bigger challenge. Some of our forwards aren't young bucks and gave a flat performance.
Eddie had us sussed.
