NH International Rugby
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@Catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
However I am distinctly uncomfortable with England picking guys like Heinz, Shields and Waldrom. Sure it's within the rules but it just does not feel right to me.
I find it delightfully ironic that pretty much the only teams that do not embrace the "grandparent rule" are the SANZAR nations.
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@Jaguares4real No, it's not cheating and calling someone like Heinz a turncoat isn't justified at all.
There are three points of view to look at this. That of the player, the (selectors of the) national team that calls up the player to represent the country, and World Rugby.
Player
Assuming every player would like to represent his country, he is bound by the eligibility rules set by others. Reasons for aspiring to play test rugby can vary, and include reasons like national pride, representing family and heritage, and even financial reasons. They're all valid (yes, financial reasons, too; it's a professional sport and careers are relatively short compared to other professions). I'm not saying that I like it when players play for a certain national team for financial reasons, by the way.I have read an interview with Heinz after he got selected and it was a nice story about his English grandmother and wanting to make her proud, and totally believable. He was just as surprised about his selection as many others, but I can't see any reason for why he should not accept the invitation from the selectors. As for players with financial reasons to accept an invitation to play for a national team: nobody would say no to a big bonus from his employer, or would you?
National selectors
The national team selectors should select the best possible players that are eligible. You can question that decision in this case, but I don't know anything about the current English halfback pool to know whether there are better (fit) halfbacks available. I don't think national selectors have to make the decision of whether players who weren't born in the country or developed their rugby skills and experience in another country, should or should not be selected (except maybe for the so-called "project players" and targeted, intentional poaching). They simply have to respect the eligibility criteria and then pick the players that best fit the profile of the player they're looking to select for their team.World Rugby
And then there's World Rugby, that sets the eligibility criteria. If someone is to blame for national teams selecting players who weren't born in the country or developed their rugby skills and experience in another country, it's the organisation that sets the rules. And WR has to consider all the options and considerations pro and contra.As @Catogrande rightly pointed out, in the case of some small countries (including the Pacific Nations) there is something to say for the grandparent rule, because otherwise it may be hard for emigration countries (i.e. countries with a net emigration, as opposed to immigration countries with a net immigration) to select a team of quality players. Migration, for whatever reason, is an important reality; certainly for countries that are former colonies or for poor countries.
Migration means that ties to new countries are established, but doesn't necessarily mean that ties to the old country will be cut. It has always been that way, and probably always will. National or cultural heritage plays a bigger role in some cultures (e.g. the Pacific cultures) than in others; some feel very strong ties to the country in which their grandparents were born. It's something that needs to be respected.
World Rugby has a difficult job to set eligibility rules in this reality; maybe, one day the grandparent rule will disappear; or maybe they'll limit its application to certain nations (good luck with that!). They already have restricted the residency rule from 3 to 5 years. But it's World Rugby where the responsibility lies; not the player, not the national team selectors.
So blaming a player for accepting an invitation to represent the national team of the country in which his grandparent was born is silly. Calling him a turncoat is ridiculous if you can't prove that that player moved to the country of his grandparent with the sole or main objective of making the national team of that country. I think it's fair to say that making the England team wasn't the reason for Heinz signing a contract with an English club and moving there.
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@Higgins said in NH International Rugby:
@Catogrande said in NH International Rugby:
However I am distinctly uncomfortable with England picking guys like Heinz, Shields and Waldrom. Sure it's within the rules but it just does not feel right to me.
I find it delightfully ironic that pretty much the only teams that do not embrace the "grandparent rule" are the SANZAR nations.
Net immigration might have a bearing on that.
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@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:
The likes of Will Heinz "playing for England" is the reason why I don't support ENG despite having strong links to ENG
A 2nd rate Kiwi has no business playing for ENG
What do Kiwi members of TSF think of this fucking turncoat
Are you Argentinian?
If not you're a f*cking turncoat yourself.
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@Billy-Tell said in NH International Rugby:
@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:
The likes of Will Heinz "playing for England" is the reason why I don't support ENG despite having strong links to ENG
A 2nd rate Kiwi has no business playing for ENG
What do Kiwi members of TSF think of this fucking turncoat
Are you Argentinian?
If not you're a f*cking turncoat yourself.
Irony and comprehension are not its strong points.
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@Billy-Tell said in NH International Rugby:
@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:
@Catogrande
A 2nd rate Kiwi has no business playing for ENGWhat do Kiwi members of TSF think of this fucking turncoat
Are you Argentinian?
If not you're a f*cking turncoat yourself.
I've got some bad news for you Buster...
I'm not English
Assumptions are the mother of fuck ups
CC: @Bones
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@Jaguares4real Where did he say you're English? Who's making assumptions now?
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@Stargazer good post.
I have to agree. Even though there are times it can seem mercenary you can’t deny a player an opportunity just because fans disagree.
As any parent of a potential international (even if that potential is a dream) can attest you play with the idea of what countries your kid would be eligible for. My son would qualify for England, Scotland, Australia and NZ.
I’d have to support him through gritted teeth if he was to play for a couple of those but would also be proud and pleased. -
I'm happy to acknowledge folks who're Dual Nationals, Refugee backgrounds etc who have varied and complex backgrounds
Something I understand very wellBralley was ENG U20 player & was the bloody Captain
Also capped throughout ENG age group levelI can not tolerate Bralley then not being good enough for ENG & playing for Italy Fuck Outta Here!!!
Once you commit at U20 level you don't change national allegiances in Int'l Rugby
Heinz is a mercenary pure & simple Having a granny who lived in ENG 70+ years ago ain't going to cut it
Int'l Rugby is not a playground for 2nd rate players to play for Inferior nations to play at RWC and earn some extra coin
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@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:
I'm happy to acknowledge folks who're Dual Nationals, Refugee backgrounds etc who have varied and complex backgrounds
Something I understand very wellBralley was ENG U20 player & was the bloody Captain
Also capped throughout ENG age group levelI can not tolerate Bralley then not being good enough for ENG & playing for Italy Fuck Outta Here!!!
Once you commit at U20 level you don't change national allegiances in Int'l Rugby
Heinz is a mercenary pure & simple Having a granny who lived in ENG 70+ years ago ain't going to cut it
Int'l Rugby is not a playground for 2nd rate players to play for Inferior nations to play at RWC and earn some extra coin
That post is so fucked on so many levels I don’t know where to start.
For starters you quite obviously don’t understand ‘complex backgrounds’ at all. Who are you to judge and ‘understand’ a particular person’s family dynamics.
From what I understand Heinz’s grandmother is proud English and always lived in England. She has maintained and promoted that aspect of heritage with her grandchildren.
An 18 or 19 year old will take any opportunity offered and not necessarily one that ends up one that defines their later life.
If Heinz wants to play for an inferior nation (
) then by definition he has been deemed at the level of that team.
My only complaint about waka jumping comes when a player is offered a deal they can’t refuse that is probably against their desires. -
@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:
Italians taking the piss again with Mercenary players
Callum Braley born and bred in ENG
ENG U20 captain but has a Italian granddad so plays for Italy
This quote below is disgusting Int'l Rugby not a shopping centre where you
pick & choose what nation you want to to play and game the system“As a kid I always dreamt of playing international rugby and I always knew that could be two avenues
so it’s one of them, whichever came first and gave me that opportunity and believed in me the most,”Ummmmmm who the hell are you to say what someone thinks ?
If god forbid I was anywhere near good enough to play international Rugby I could have gone for the country I love and have lived in most of my life ( New Zealand ) or where my old man was born and one which I'm fiercely proud of my heritage ( Scotland ).
If you've got the family ties then fucken do it, I have nothing but respect for the Leslie brothers, Gordon Simpson, Brendan Laney and many others for what they gave to the blue jersey.
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@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:
You have your experience
I have mine
It’s nothing to do with personal experience. What the fuck are you on about?
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Great country the little I've seen, great people.
Would love to travel to Georgia for a 7-nations match and then go skiing.
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@MiketheSnow we had them in my area during the 2011 RWC. So the Council and local businesses produced Georgia supporting t-shirts, all the kids were wearing them. We had parades and huge dinner nights etc. Great bunch, they were pretty shocked!
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@MN5 said in NH International Rugby:
@Jaguares4real said in NH International Rugby:
Italians taking the piss again with Mercenary players
Callum Braley born and bred in ENG
ENG U20 captain but has a Italian granddad so plays for Italy
This quote below is disgusting Int'l Rugby not a shopping centre where you
pick & choose what nation you want to to play and game the system“As a kid I always dreamt of playing international rugby and I always knew that could be two avenues
so it’s one of them, whichever came first and gave me that opportunity and believed in me the most,”Ummmmmm who the hell are you to say what someone thinks ?
If god forbid I was anywhere near good enough to play international Rugby I could have gone for the country I love and have lived in most of my life ( New Zealand ) or where my old man was born and one which I'm fiercely proud of my heritage ( Scotland ).
If you've got the family ties then fucken do it, I have nothing but respect for the Leslie brothers, Gordon Simpson, Brendan Laney and many others for what they gave to the blue jersey.
At the end of the day it is professional sport and you do what is best for your career, sure it is a bonus and privilege if you can do it for your country of birth. Look at other sports, football, cricket even
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Good piece on the rise and rise and rise of the Welsh national side over the last 18 months:
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Nigel Owens to make history by being first referee to officiate in a match involving their own country
Wales v Barbarians at the Principality Stadium on 30 November 2019
Pivac v Gatland
Nigel Owens to referee Wales for the first time after World Rugby give special dispensation | Wales Online
World Cup final ref Owens to take charge of Wales at the Principality Stadium
