Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?
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sorry, I meant just in general, not specifically the top job...I mean look at how often former ABs are fast tracked at M10/Super level, although I think NZR may have seen this isnt ideal and most are following a path through M10, U21, super now....
Some still work thier way up through the ranks (Razor is a good example) but those who have not been ABs have to prove thier worth just that bit more.
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@nzzp said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@booboo said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
Whilst not being "remotely close" 11 and 8 years ago who knows what they may have achieved if they had stayed in NZ rugby and had success at Super and NPC level.
Hard getting coaching gigs here - you're up against former all black bias (JK, Hammett, Tana). Not convinced they'll get a fair crack necessarily
Warren Gatland ...
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@dogmeat said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@nzzp Gatland was an AB
@booboo You've omitted Gatland's time coaching Ireland so over 13 seasons in total plus two Lions tours. I doubt there has ever been a more experienced candidate for AB coach.
How have ex Wales coaches gone before?
I think Foster will get the gig barring a meltdown in Japan.
How do he and Gatland get along?
I was referencing the qwuoted post as correct.
What? You want me to check my facts?
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@dogmeat said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@taniwharugby yet in the professional era there have been 5 RWC cycles only one of which (Smith/Mitchell) had an ex AB in charge. Non AB's have led us to two World Cups and a first ever series win in SA
One (I'm pretty sure ... I'm not checking) wasn't even a first class player.
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@dogmeat said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@taniwharugby yet in the professional era there have been 5 RWC cycles only one of which (Smith/Mitchell) had an ex AB in charge. Non AB's have led us to two World Cups and a first ever series win in SA
What does that tell you about the wisdom of picking ex-players and ignoring coaches that have worked their way up through the ranks? Out of Super rugby winning NZ coaches of recent times, there have been as many non ABs (Rennie, Boyd) as ABs (Razor, Jamie Joseph). Lots of ex-ABs have coached and flopped in the meantime
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@Nepia said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@Chris-B said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@Nepia If they're going to change the Crusaders' name, I wonder if they'd consider "The Hammers"?
The psychological advantage would be worth two wins a season over the Hurricanes!
The Hammers with Hammeteur at the helm - you've heard of the fall of the Roman empire right? It's all falling it to place.
We'll never get Hammer now that the Chiefs and the ABs have him in their sights!
We could also run with the Toddies - should be good for an IRB subsidy or two!
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@taniwharugby said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
sorry, I meant just in general, not specifically the top job...I mean look at how often former ABs are fast tracked at M10/Super level, although I think NZR may have seen this isnt ideal and most are following a path through M10, U21, super now....
Some still work thier way up through the ranks (Razor is a good example) but those who have not been ABs have to prove thier worth just that bit more.
Is he though? Rob Penny had a similar resume over longer and got absolutely nowhere near a Super role. Rennie, had a slightly different path but again was made to wait for far too long.
That is not to say that these ex-ABs didn't have solid resumes worthy of appointment (including Umaga and Kirwan) I can't think of a single Super Rugby coaching role where a tie-breaker hasn't gone with an ex-AB, up to and including Coventry vs MacDonald.
This hasn't happened for a while with the ABs because the stakes are too high to pick on anything but (perceived) merit - which is what makes this next appointment interesting.
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@rotated Razor is a good example of someone who has worked his way up and through the system as opposed to say Hammett...
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@taniwharugby said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@rotated Razor is a good example of someone who has worked his way up and through the system as opposed to say Hammett...
He worked his way up sure, but you non-ABs have to work their way up a lot further consider the gauntlet Plumtree/Rennie/Boyd were forced to run to get their first Super postings and paths Schmidt/Cotter/Haig would have needed to take if they stayed. They certainly wouldn't be given a Super Rugby HC job with three years head coaching experience.
To be fair Hammett like Gibson (to the Tahs) and Mauger (to Leicester) was probably more of a case as clubs wanting to sprinkle magic Crusaders-dust over their teams (Blues have ignored those results and are attempting again).
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As good as Razor's record has been it's not been with the Blues has it?
It's genuinely difficult to go past Gatland's record of success. Hopefully whoever gets the gig brings him on board.
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@antipodean Without really disagreeing with you that Warren's probably done well with the resources available to him, his overall record is a bit patchy.
By my quick count, his combined record against NZ, Oz and SA is played 50 for 9 wins, 1 draw and 40 losses.
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@rotated you have kinda made my point re Hammett where they thought the magic Crusader dust would work even though he was still in nappies.
I certainly think NZR have altered thier view slightly without looking to fast track, but ensuring these coaches get the support and experience.
Derren Whitcombe is serving out a decent apprenticeship (into about his 6/7th year I guess?) did a couple of seasons as Assistant here, was head coach, then went to Japan for a couple of season, and is now back in M10 Cup and also involved in NZ U20 set up, expect the next logical step will be super rugby for him
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@Chris-B said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@antipodean Without really disagreeing with you that Warren's probably done well with the resources available to him, his overall record is a bit patchy.
By my quick count, his combined record against NZ, Oz and SA is played 50 for 9 wins, 1 draw and 40 losses.
How different is that from Hansen and/or Henry though? And those two had to create the new pathways inside wales to have any chance of success
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@nzzp A lot more time/games to find the winning formula.
Hansen was 0-6, but he didn't have a Lions job to pad out his record (Warren has 3 wins and a draw from the Lions).
Can't tell you about Ted - except he lost 2-1 to Oz with the Lions and I'm pretty sure he never coached against the ABs.
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@Chris-B said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@nzzp A lot more time/games to find the winning formula.
Hansen was 0-6, but he didn't have a Lions job to pad out his record (Warren has 3 wins and a draw from the Lions).
Can't tell you about Ted - except he lost 2-1 to Oz with the Lions and I'm pretty sure he never coached against the ABs.
Also got a win over the Saffas with Wales which was unheard of at that time.
Also made provincial and super rugby his bitch until some dodgy reffing in 1998.
Edit: Now that Dave Rennie appears to be Wallaby bound I change my vote to Razor (IIRC I picked either of those two equally with the other assistant but I could only select one option).
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@Nepia said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@Chris-B said in Who does TSF want to be the next AB coach?:
@nzzp A lot more time/games to find the winning formula.
Hansen was 0-6, but he didn't have a Lions job to pad out his record (Warren has 3 wins and a draw from the Lions).
Can't tell you about Ted - except he lost 2-1 to Oz with the Lions and I'm pretty sure he never coached against the ABs.
Also got a win over the Saffas with Wales which was unheard of at that time.
Also made provincial and super rugby his bitch until some dodgy reffing in 1998.
Edit: Now that Dave Rennie appears to be Wallaby bound I change my vote to Razor (IIRC I picked either of those two equally with the other assistant but I could only select one option).
I could easily live with Razor head coach, Gats and Fozzie assistants. Foz brings continuity for a season or two; Gats gets to hatch schemes without the pressure of the head coaching gig. Could suit him like it suited Wayne-o.
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@nzzp I could doubtless live with Warren as head coach as well. Mainly just pointing out that his record isn't consistently stellar.
I think anyone will probably do quite well, though relative to the past 10 years - even the past 30 years - it might be a bit of a poisoned chalice. I'm concerned at the amount of experience we're going to lose in the near future.
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@Nepia Is Rennie really lining up for the Wallaby job, or is that just a journo filling space?
If Dave wants a head coaching job, you'd think he'd at least give the ABs gig a crack - though, a bit like KK, he doesn't seem to be one of NZ Rugby's favourite sons.
Warren Gatland - Wikipedia
