Exodus
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This post is deleted!
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@sparky said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@sparky said in Exodus 2019:
Montpellier owner, Mohed Altrad, on Aaron Cruden "Our outside half, since he's here, keeps hurting himself. This season he has been injured four times. It is difficult for him to be efficient. We hoped for something else."
A reminder to all those joining the Exodus that their new owners are unlikely to be as patient and understanding as NZR.
Tyler Bleyendaal might disagree with you.
Yes, poor Tyler. Education at Christchurch Boys' High, two years with the NZ under 20s, four years at Canterbury and three season at the Crusaders (as understudy to the best Five Five of all time) and receiving so much world-class coaching must have him totally underprepared for being poached by Ireland.
Err ‘poached’?? I think Munster contracted him. And they have been patient. He’s had 46 appearances since 2015/16 and they even extended his contract until June this year.
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@MN5 said in Exodus 2019:
@Chester-Draws said in Exodus 2019:
@sparky said in Exodus 2019:
Montpellier owner, Mohed Altrad, on Aaron Cruden "Our outside half, since he's here, keeps hurting himself. This season he has been injured four times. It is difficult for him to be efficient. We hoped for something else."
A reminder to all those joining the Exodus that their new owners are unlikely to be as patient and understanding as NZR.
Given that Cruden left because he "missed a plane" and was frequently injured, what was Altrad expecting?
Did he really leave because of injuries and behaviour? I don't think so. He got past the blot on his copybook and was clearly valued by they AB coaches but could see that he was not going to hold off BBs rise to permanent 1st choice and had already ticked off his NZ career aims. Ideal time to collect some money for the years of work.
The problem that many overseas clubs are finding is that when they recruit a guy that has been to the top of the mountain they don't have the same motivation to go back there.
The better value for money is in the good players that are 'bubbling under' or blocked in their NZ pathway. They have the motivation of turning the game into a decently payed career.Absolutely it is a case of buyer beware for Altred.
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@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
Err ‘poached’?? I think Munster contracted him. And they have been patient. He’s had 46 appearances since 2015/16 and they even extended his contract until June this year.
Whats the difference between him an Aki? As I'm sure you'll agree Aki is a poach?
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@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
Err ‘poached’?? I think Munster contracted him. And they have been patient. He’s had 46 appearances since 2015/16 and they even extended his contract until June this year.
Whats the difference between him an Aki? As I'm sure you'll agree Aki is a poach?
It depends on what you mean by poach. The four provinces do need to bring in players from time to time (although it's now reducing) who can bolster their playing stocks and/or serve as a mentor for young players e.g. Fardy and the Leinster Academy kids. The IRFU put limits on the number of NIE (already capped) foreign players that the provinces could bring in because of blocking pathways and also because they've got too expensive. Under the Player Succession Strategy from 2012, the limits were set at 4 NIE plus one special project player who could ultimately qualify through residency (based on the then 3-year requirement). Those limits applied to Leinster, Munster, Ulster and budgets set accordingly. Connacht (where Aki went) were excluded from this approach as they were a development province. (That has now changed in last couple of years with regard to funding from IRFU, but their own financial resources are probably half or less of the other three - gate money, sponsorships, etc.) Lam wanted NZ players like Aki, McCartney, Heenan to develop his squad, not IRFU. (He's doing the exact same at Bristol).
Bleyendaal has been extremely unfortunate with his injuries and timing of them undoubtedly, but Munster have been patient with him (and others) in continuing with him, given there are 5 out halves on the Munster books currently. Keatley is leaving for Bennetton at end of season, and with Carbery now in pole position, I'd wonder if his contract will continue on past this season unless they want Bleyendaal (29 in May) to provide a mentor role to the younger 10s coming through - Johnson and Harrahan.
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@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
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@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.
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@rotated said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.
So any uncapped player who is approached or via agent and chooses to move to another club/country to play is a poach then.
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@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.
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@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@rotated said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.
So any uncapped player who is approached or via agent and chooses to move to another club/country to play is a poach then.
If you are selecting them purely on the basis of if they can be qualified for Ireland at some point in the future (but are not currently) - yes. The slot was created entirely to incentivise the teams to recruit the best foreign players they could that hadn't been nation-tied. This is the literal dictionary definition of poaching - taking or acquiring something in an unfair or clandestine way - with the IRFU qualifying players for national rugby indirectly through the club system.
There is perhaps and argument that guys like JGP who at least had links to Ireland aren't poaches and found their way there "naturally". But if you are thinking a bank teller from South Auckland with Tongan roots ends up playing for Ireland normally then I don't really know what to say...
Even think about the term "project player", what is the "project"?
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@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.
What's the difference between NIE and NIQ? What do those acronyms actually stand for?
Sorry, I'm not having a pop or anything, I'm just curious if Bleyendaal was a "tactical" choice for potential Ireland selection (like Payne, Aki), or really there to bolster the ranks of the club only (Fardy).
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Would have been funny to see what would have happened if the NZRU relaxed the selection rules and picked Aki in his fourth year of Irish qualification. If Aki accepted selection Connacht would be duty bound to release him (like us with Shields and Francis)... then what?
I wonder if his contract stated he had to maintain non-capped status?
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@rotated said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@rotated said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
You don't even need to ask the question. The designated "project player" is just a "proactively poached player". This is fine and was allowed under the rules at the time, but let's be honest about it.
So any uncapped player who is approached or via agent and chooses to move to another club/country to play is a poach then.
If you are selecting them purely on the basis of if they can be qualified for Ireland at some point in the future (but are not currently) - yes. The slot was created entirely to incentivise the teams to recruit the best foreign players they could that hadn't been nation-tied. This is the literal dictionary definition of poaching - taking or acquiring something in an unfair or clandestine way - with the IRFU qualifying players for national rugby indirectly through the club system.
There is perhaps and argument that guys like JGP who at least had links to Ireland aren't poaches and found their way there "naturally". But if you are thinking a bank teller from South Auckland with Tongan roots ends up playing for Ireland normally then I don't really know what to say...
Even think about the term "project player", what is the "project"?
Yes of course, the term project player is used to describe a player who could eventually qualify to be selected for Ireland - or Scotland, Wales, England, NZ, SA, etc, etc.on the basis that a) they are good enough and b) they want to.
A player is either capped or uncapped to state the obvious. It's neither unfair nor clandestine. Nor is hiring them for a period of time to avail of their skill or experience. They're not being selected purely or only on the basis of if they can qualify at some point in future. Players are selected on a number of criteria if the club is Leinster, Munster and Ulster:
a) Are they needed or could the position be filled domestically now?
b) Are they capped - in which case not likely to be called up for test duty
c) What age are they and what experience?
d) How expensive are they - capped is more expensive than uncapped?
e) What position do they play - only 1 per position allowed?
f) Can the team afford to pay the salary?
g) What length contract are you offering/playing is looking for?If you're Pat Lam in Connacht in 2013/14 starting your first season of a club that has been living in the cellar of the PRO12 since it started, then you're faced with some basic realities:
- I don't have to follow the recruitment guidelines of the other 3 provinces
- I do have to boost the playing stocks and get more skill and experience in - but
- I only have half the playing budget of the other three provinces.
- I've just lost two of the stalwarts of the team and need to bring in more leadership
- I need to find the cheapest skill value that I can. Experienced Irish players are reluctant to move to Connacht unless they're raw recruits.
- I've already blown a big part of the budget on a big name - Muliana - so cheaper uncapped players is the best way to go.
- I need an experienced hooker, backrower, midfielder and wing/utility back.
- I know some players from my time in Blues, XX - Jake Heenan, Craig Clarke, Tom McCartney, Bundee Aki, etc - I'll go after them over next couple of seasons.
I completely agree with you that some of the NZ players here had Ireland links already - like McCartney's wife, Bent's sister and brother, McCoy's grandparents, etc and that Aki is an odd man out in that regard, but so are/were Marshall, Bleyendaal, Heenan, Borlase, etc, .
All of the players were aware that they could qualify for selection by residency - it's not a secret - if they got a second contract as a three season contract would not be enough. There were no guarantees - contractually or financially. If you're playing in Connacht, you're going to be earning less than the other three provinces, and a lot less than playing in England or France. ( As a by-the-by , oddly enough, very few of the NZ/Aus seem to be aware of the non-EU foreign player rule restrictions even though it limits their playing time and match fee earnings).
I admire Aki greatly. Despite no country or cultural links, he has endeared himself to his team-mates, his community and to Irish fans generally with his vibrancy, his willingness to get involved, integration with local culture and humbleness are a massive credit to the man.
This video from the Connacht plane returning home after winning the PRO12 title speaks volume for the guy -
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@rotated said in Exodus 2019:
Would have been funny to see what would have happened if the NZRU relaxed the selection rules and picked Aki in his fourth year of Irish qualification. If Aki accepted selection Connacht would be duty bound to release him (like us with Shields and Francis)... then what?
I wonder if his contract stated he had to maintain non-capped status?
No it can't state that. I remember that question came up somewhere else. Aki's first three-season contract was five months short of him having three year residency. All players have to get a second contract that takes them beyond three-year (now five) in order to residency qualify. With five-year, the project player has largely disappeared thought few uncapped foreign players remain in the system - Gibson-Park (June 2019), McCartney (already qualified), Marshall, (Nov 2019), Kleyn, (Aug 2019), Cloete (June 2020), Lowe (Dec 2020)
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@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
@MajorRage said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum You can summarise the poach question as would the player have been bought if they couldn't qualify for Ireland in the future?
Yes. They were allowed 4 NIE players. In Connacht, they didn’t have any restrictions so it didn’t matter if they were NIE or NIQ.
What's the difference between NIE and NIQ? What do those acronyms actually stand for?
Sorry, I'm not having a pop or anything, I'm just curious if Bleyendaal was a "tactical" choice for potential Ireland selection (like Payne, Aki), or really there to bolster the ranks of the club only (Fardy).
Sorry - should have explained. Non-Irish Eligible (already capped) and Non-Irish Qualified (uncapped).
From the IRFU Player Succession Contract Policy issued in 2011:
*"The following principles are designed to deliver at least two suitably experienced Irish players in all 15 field positions for national team selection:- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.
- The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU."*
On Bleyendaal, Munster needed a 10, but the 10 NIE slot was already taken by Gopperth I think, so Munster nominated him as a 12 (who could play 10).
Munster sign Tyler Bleyendaal from Crusaders
The 23 year old outhalf cum centre will join up with the Irish province on November 1st
Munster had their project player nominee already - Gerhard van den Heever who didn't work out and went to Japan.
Good interview published today with Bleyendaal here:
Bleyendaal determined to make pitch for role in Edinburgh showdown
Tyler Bleyendaal is looking to the Six Nations window as the opportunity to chalk up some game-time with Munster and get his career back on track with the ...
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Dane Coles has signed for..............
THE HURRICANES and NZR
