England vs All Blacks
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We have had similar arguments, complete with jpgs with sqiggles, for over 15 years. It’s not a new phenomenon.
It’s also just a visible medium of what fans have been doing since forever.
When people in the media write their opinion, and try to present their opinion as fact, the fans have the write of reply.
It helps in this case that it’s super clear he was offside.
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@nzzp said in England vs All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in England vs All Blacks:
My take, England unlucky , not because it was incorrect but because that stuff doesn’t always get pulled up ,
But a similar type situation awarded the lions a draw against the Allblacks last year in the third test ,
And they celebrated like they had won the World Cup ,
Can’t have it both ways .
Actually, I was thinking more about the 2nd test, where the Lions won on a really dodgy penalty that was probably 'correct in law' (player jumping to catch a pass).
One of the things that is starting to piss me off about rugby is the partisan nature of the fans. Feels like it used to be people would cop it, and take it as part of the game; 'yeah - bit lucky to get away with that one'. Now there is so much explaining about how the call was actually right (Itoje was onside, Farrell tried to wrap, and 'accidental offside doesn't exist as he didn't play at it and anyway Read of was offside').
It's really frustrating.
Rather than enjoy the game, and celebrate wins or losses, there is shitloads more argument about the laws we're playing under. Maybe I'm just getting older and more cynical, but it's not as much fun as it used to be
There's more scope and ability to argue with the interweb.
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@crucial said in England vs All Blacks:
@booboo said in England vs All Blacks:
@chester-draws said in England vs All Blacks:
How many penalties did the ABs give?
A couple on the line when we were desperate, but almost no mid-field soft stuff. That's game winning in the rain.
Thought Garces was excellent.
We made it hard by dropping ball with the line in sight a couple of times, and Beauden consistently hitting it too hard early, so giving them 22s.
As pointed out, the backs entering a maul before the lineout has moved off the line is illegal. That's why the tactic isn't used very much.
Thanks Chester.
Was going to come back to that. I was wondering if the law had changed at all because to me that was bleeding obvious.
My memory of the law is from the 1980s so wondered if it was still right.
Summary of my recollection is that players not in the lineout shall stay 10m off the line of touch until the lineout ends as follows:
- ball is tapped or fed to the halfback (receiver)
- ball or maul travels beyond 15m line or into the 5m
- last foot of maul travels beyond line of touch
If that hasn't changed, why
a. The deliberate disregard for the laws by England? Cynical much?
b. The ignorance by the officials? Incompetence much?I had to go back and rewatch this to see what the point was.
If we are talking about the maul try, it was a clever bit of coaching I suspect. As far as backs joining it was legal. No backs joined until the maul was over the 15 metre line. The ABs set up their defence perfectly except the Poms then ran sideways meaning no one could join with any effect without getting pinged for coming in the side. Once over the 15m line extra players piled into the unstably defended maul and drove it forward. Well played.
No. The back to back lineouts on our line in the second half.
No score resulted but just an example of Poms having a call (two consecutive calls) go their way.
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@booboo said in England vs All Blacks:
@crucial said in England vs All Blacks:
@booboo said in England vs All Blacks:
@chester-draws said in England vs All Blacks:
How many penalties did the ABs give?
A couple on the line when we were desperate, but almost no mid-field soft stuff. That's game winning in the rain.
Thought Garces was excellent.
We made it hard by dropping ball with the line in sight a couple of times, and Beauden consistently hitting it too hard early, so giving them 22s.
As pointed out, the backs entering a maul before the lineout has moved off the line is illegal. That's why the tactic isn't used very much.
Thanks Chester.
Was going to come back to that. I was wondering if the law had changed at all because to me that was bleeding obvious.
My memory of the law is from the 1980s so wondered if it was still right.
Summary of my recollection is that players not in the lineout shall stay 10m off the line of touch until the lineout ends as follows:
- ball is tapped or fed to the halfback (receiver)
- ball or maul travels beyond 15m line or into the 5m
- last foot of maul travels beyond line of touch
If that hasn't changed, why
a. The deliberate disregard for the laws by England? Cynical much?
b. The ignorance by the officials? Incompetence much?I had to go back and rewatch this to see what the point was.
If we are talking about the maul try, it was a clever bit of coaching I suspect. As far as backs joining it was legal. No backs joined until the maul was over the 15 metre line. The ABs set up their defence perfectly except the Poms then ran sideways meaning no one could join with any effect without getting pinged for coming in the side. Once over the 15m line extra players piled into the unstably defended maul and drove it forward. Well played.
No. The back to back lineouts on our line in the second half.
No score resulted but just an example of Poms having a call (two consecutive calls go their way).
Thanks for clarifying. There were few different topics going on at once and I couldn’t be arsed trying to work it out.
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@crucial said in England vs All Blacks:
There were few different topics going on at once and I couldn’t be arsed trying to work it out.
BAU on the fern!! You already went over and above by reading at least one post in the thread
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they use technology to make the decisions these days, so why cant people use technology to express thier opinion of it?
A picture is worth a thousand words, surely that saves an awful lot of rambling?
As fans we only want the correct decisions made, sometimes these will go against us, but ultimately you get over those quicker than the ones that were blatantly wrong and go against you.
I watched the game on the early replay, I had glanced at social media and saw a comment about how good england were...so I watched the game not knowing the result but expecting the worst, especially when we were down by 15.
But I still enjoyed it, as I said earlier, I thought it was a good game, England played well, we had our moments, we played well within ourselves and a style we dont often play, but did so and won.
I especially love the fact we won with BB's boot off the tee, I imagine the calls of Kiwi arrogance had we turned down those penalties and then lost 1 though, so it was a somewhat satisfying way to win.
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The Walrus also marked down Ioane hugely. I think he just likes to dismiss anyone with a reputation from NZ.
Says Ioane was well out of position for the first try. He wasn’t, he was in position for the setup the ABs were playing.
They have been using a narrow defence with the widest defender about 15 metres from the side on the blindside and 20metres on the open side. Ioane didn’t move at all from his channel during all the build up.
Contrary to the Pom commentary, they didn’t suck the defence in, they moved across to the point where we wrap (see that pre game video) then flung a ball past Ioane into the wide channel. DMac had started to cover the wrap as coached but saw what was happening and came back as sweeper. Too late though as he couldn’t target the wing except sideways.
Have to give this one to Eddie as well. He used our defensive system against us and the players executed it perfectly. -
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Kind of apropos to the Walrus (he who believeth in Aura)
- Itoje was OK. I'll admit it. Not 9/10 by any stretch nor anywhere near as good as his rep (mind you that would result in a 12/10) but useful, especially on D.
- Sinckler went better than I thought both around the field and held his own against Big Karl. Which pissed me off.
- Ioane was quietish because the ball didn't go his way
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Who cares what jones think? A lot of kiwis unfortunately, including a few on this forum.
Look, we saw Retallick dominate Itoje in the line out in the 2nd 40. It doesn’t need jones to acknowledge it to appreciate it.
The guy is smart. And people fall for it every time. He’s not going to change.
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Quite an enjoyable game, tactically. England 100% perfect almost for the first 30 minutes. NZ changed tactics when Crotty came on (presumable with some coaching instructions) and the match instantly flipped.
NZ actually left some 'almost' points out there from try-scoring POV.
I didn't agree with Read's decision to take the scrum instead of kick for goal on 35 minutes, but it worked.
I also didn't agree with England's decision to plug the corner (twice) and it didn't work.
Just seemed like a take the points kind of day.
Highlight of the day for me was the Beauden dropgoal. I'm now way more confident about our chances next year knowing they aren't just flat track bullies. Well done, fellas, I'm impressed with the resolve and the flexibilty to change tactics.
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Just a little side comment on rugby 'instincts'. How long has Ashton been playing rugby and when how young did he start playing?
Diving for the try with the ball in his wrong arm, Midgit DMac almost kept him up too.
Micro-skills.
He had so much time to change it over.
It's times like these I curse my lack of athleticism, as I believe I have more instincts and (possibly) better skills (if i trained all day .....) than an international rugby player with bucket loads of test tries.
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@mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:
The Walrus did genuinely love Jonah though which I found a bit contrary to all his other bullshit.
Aah but that's because Lomu was a Tongan, not a Kiwi - iaw NH rugby media all players of PI decent (not playing for NH sides) are not from their country of birth but poached from their country of decent by really good talent scouting of their parents/grandparents.
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@victor-meldrew Thanks Victor, I was actually after the article which you said was good. Those ratings tho, England dominated and was robbed! Just look at the stats haha!
Utter White Rose domination, robbed by the ref and a dodgy Aura
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@billy-tell said in England vs All Blacks:
Who cares what jones think?
Doesn't wind me up. His journalistic ineptitude actually makes me laugh
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Here's Walrus article 1:
England were subject to ‘total injustice’
England wins over the All Blacks are so rare. That is why yesterday’s decision not to allow what would have been the winning try by Sam Underhill will go down as a travesty.
Before the nuts and bolts of the call by Marius Jonker, the television match official, we should beware: if the play before a touchdown is going to be called back for possible offside at rucks then every try will have to be examined. Rear-feet offside is pandemic in the game, and it is almost certain that at the rucks and mauls yesterday, Courtney Lawes was the only player all afternoon who actually did stay onside.
The defending team at a ruck can only move across the offside line the instant that the ball is lifted off the turf. Television helped us out yesterday by freezing the frame after TJ Perenara had clearly lifted the ball, by plastering a vivid yellow line across the field to represent the offside line. Lawes was still onside.
At 6ft 6in, Lawes is a considerable athlete. He did not have to cheat to be in a position to make a chargedown. In fact, his discipline as he moved sideways to the side of the ruck was impeccable. He looked up briefly to see if the referee was happy with him, and although Mr Garces is at liberty to tell Lawes to go back, he did not. Total injustice
In frame one, below, we see Lawes onside as Perenara lays hands on the ball at the base of the ruck
The All Black scrum-half has clearly picked it up and Lawes advances to close him down
The lock’s height helps him make the charge down from which a try apparently results. TMO Marius Jonker, however, tells referee Jerome Garces to disallow the score for offside
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... and Walrus article 2:
In any match that they lose, New Zealand tend to complain about refereeing decisions for decades afterwards. If England apply those same standards to yesterday afternoon then they will be bitter to the end of time. A few minutes before the end of this drama, replacement scrum-half TJ Perenara’s kick was charged down by Courtney Lawes and Sam Underhill picked up the ball, utterly bamboozled Beauden Barrett and dived over the line.
Jerome Garces, the referee, awarded the try and Twickenham celebrated wildly what would have been a thoroughly deserved victory. But then Marius Jonker, the TMO, attracted the referee’s attention and the incident went upstairs. There it festered, and was reversed. The officials got it utterly wrong, England were robbed.
It is also worth mentioning that rear feet offside is something ignored by officials the world over and, indeed, as England attacked desperately in the last few minutes and carried the ball through phases, the All Blacks were offside in six consecutive phases by a big margin. If Lawes was offside then the officials missed about 100 similar offences by both sides.
England played to a high level, with devil, purpose, structure and a swarming defence in which Maro Itoje was regal and Sam Underhill in career-revival mood. They led by 15-0 in the first half, and they could have won it in any number of ways without the shocking decision at the end. They opted for two drive-over tries from penalties at the start of the second half, but could not quite make it, and although they were overhauled for the first time in the match after the break there was never any sense that New Zealand were taking control.
Indeed, in that first period and even until the end, not only did Itoje obliterate the two New Zealand locks in all phases, but Underhill and Kyle Sinckler started showing the fruits of their promise.
New Zealand won this game not only thanks to the TMO at the end but also due to the only recognisable platform of pressure they had at the end of the first half. The lack of any true celebration by the men in black either on the final whistle or at the drab presentation of some meaningless trophy spoke volumes.
Up and at ‘em: Sam Underhill clatters into the New Zealand defence
Up and at ‘em: Sam Underhill clatters into the New Zealand defence
ROBBIE STEPHENSON
England made the perfect start, scoring two tries and completely knocking New Zealand out of their stride. They swarmed all over them at close quarters and around the fringes and the 15-0 lead was nothing more than they deserved.The first try came after only two minutes when Brodie Retallick had failed to gather the kick-off. England rumbled on, won the ball from a solid scrummage, and then Sinckler and Itoje drove on powerfully. When the ball came back to Ben Youngs, he found Chris Ashton out wide and the prodigal wing cruised over in the corner.
Soon after that England went driving on again. Sinckler was at the head of it and when the move faltered Owen Farrell fired over a drop goal for an 8-0 lead.
The second England try was of huge significance in more ways than one. Elliot Daly gave the hosts an attacking lineout with a long kick, Itoje caught the ball and that almost extinct beast, the driving maul, was seen again on the fields of England. England drove on dynamically; two or three of the backs joined in and Dylan Hartley scored under the pile; Farrell’s conversion made it 15-0.
England desperately needed to hang on until half-time and as New Zealand launched their best attacking move near the interval, they were holding out against frantic attacks launched by Barrett. Mark Wilson was eventually penalised for not rolling away and the All Blacks opted for the scrum. Ryan Crotty took the ball after the heel and made serious ground. The ball came back to Barrett, whose inside pass set up Damian McKenzie to score.
The momentum swung further in New Zealand’s favour just before the interval, first when Farrell made a howler and put the restart out of play. From the resulting All Black attack on the stroke of half-time Barrett kicked a penalty. On 46 minutes with New Zealand now playing rapid rugby, Barrett dropped a goal to bring it back to 15-13.
England desperately needed a fiery gesture and it came when Farrell opted to go for the drive from a lineout. The hosts made great ground and forced the All Blacks to concede a penalty and then they went for exactly the same play.
The second effort also fell short when Sinckler knocked on and New Zealand could have scored a vital try when Ardie Savea looked in the clear only to drop the ball, showing that some of his attacking play was almost as bad as some of his defending. But by that stage they were 16-15 up courtesy of Barrett’s penalty.
To their credit, and as they did against South Africa last week, England finished strongly and although they were handicapped by losing four lineouts, the likes of Jonny May and Danny Care were undaunted.
So too was Underhill on his way to the line for his try. Barrett was the sole defender and oddly he turned his back. When he looked again he saw Underhill diving over, and Garces awarded the try.
He did not hear the voice of the TMO wheedling over the communications system. Maybe someone should have turned him off at the mains.
