All Blacks v France Test 3
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DMac really does solve a lot of problems, it was awesome to ses him go well. Here's hoping he can put some good performances together for the Chiefs to build on that.
I see Jordie is playing 13 for the Canes too. If he can cover midfield that also helps a lot.
Great to see both of them go well in black, even if their Super form hasn't been great this year.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@chris-b said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@bovidae Assuming it's going to 31 man squads for RWC2019, I can't see them carrying five midfielders.
They'll already need to shed two players from the 33 man squad they're using this year - plus almost certainly add a third hooker to what they used in June. So, one less loose forward, one less midfielder and they've still got to find somewhere else to prune - possibly in the outside backs.
Heaps of room. Cut Naholo and NMS from the outsides. Cut A Savea from the loosies. Turn Goodhue in to a competent winger. Then you can fit both sicknotes in the midfield. Because if you are taking both, you are going to need a heap of cover.
Goodhue does not look to have the necessary speed to play on the wing. Kahui was much faster, that is why he could have slotted there.
BFA still looks the better option on the right wing, the others being Naholo, NMS and Dagg. Aso and Mataele do not look ready yet. -
@bovidae said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
And yet Hansen has said more than once that ALB has never had a bad game for the ABs.
Hansen may be right but I just don't think he has developed as well as expected. No criticism of ALB, but I wonder if an (relatively) unsettled midfield has stymied his development a bit
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@bovidae said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
And yet Hansen has said more than once that ALB has never had a bad game for the ABs.
Hansen may be right but I just don't think he has developed as well as expected. No criticism of ALB, but I wonder if an (relatively) unsettled midfield has stymied his development a bit
ALB had a bit of the season 2 blues last year but was in good knick this year. I think you're overstating it a bit.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
Thought the debutantes, Goodhue and Frizzell, were alright without setting the world on fire. In particular, I was hoping to see a few big hits from SF, but must have missed any there were.
Early days, as both young, but quite a lot to do, in view of the completion in their spots, if they want to lock down slots.
I didn't watch Frizzell that closely, but Goodhue certainly didn't look out of place at this level. Probably needs more confidence to show out, but then again when your 10 is taking the risks the centres need to be conservative.
What he didn't do is show anything more than the player most think is at risk (ALB). If he wants to knock him aside he needs to grab his chances.Read an interesting observation the other day that maybe SBW looked so good was that he was operating outside DMac and playing close to the advantage line. That has some merit. Think when SBW has looked really good in the past and it was outside Cruden who would also take the ball to the line, short pass or take a half gap.
That 'light on the feet stepping 10' does seem to bring the best out of him.On the assumption Crotty and SBW are locks and AB selectors seem to have a preference for a bigger 12 I'd have thought Laumape has the edge on ALB, and particularly JG. So it could well end up a shoot out between ALB and JG for 13, and I concur that the new man hasn't done enough (yet?).
IIRC we've agreed on Cruden/SBW before. AC often played very flat and challenged the line, with SBW coming in flat on a line close to him. If AC passed he'd create a little extra space for SBW, who was lethal in that situation.
SBW has never looked quite as good outside DC or BB. Nonu on the other hand never quite sparked outside Crudes, but we all know what he did the G10OAT!
I just think it may be interesting tactically for the coaches with that knowledge.
If you know that DMac/SBW can create together, do you set up the plan to get that combo on against a flat defence if you need to?
Do you have that combo in mind even with keeping BB on the field?
Could we see a scenario where DMac comes off the bench and pushes BB back to 15?
How do you fit both BFA and JB into this scenario?
If DMac becomes important in this planning then we go to the RWC with 2 10s and a utility 10. How does that affect the mix for the 4 outside backs given that he also covers 15. If both BFA and JB are there that only leaves room for two specialist wingers.Will all be interesting.
Lots of good ideas.
One thought: if we're in a tight game and DMac comes off bench I can't see ABs naturally taking BB's hands off the tiller. In easy games it wouldn't matter, but that said would be lethal.
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@no-quarter said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
DMac really does solve a lot of problems, it was awesome to ses him go well. Here's hoping he can put some good performances together for the Chiefs to build on that.
I see Jordie is playing 13 for the Canes too. If he can cover midfield that also helps a lot.
Great to see both of them go well in black, even if their Super form hasn't been great this year.
I agree it’s good for him to cover there, but I’m also tempted to say that for now, at least, Jordie should stay at FB.
I really like his height back there, and long term I think Rieko is a better bet to move to 13, plus we have heaps of young ‘natural’ 13s around too (can you believe that Matt Proctor is only 25?).
So, it’s good that he can develop to cover 12/13, but I hope he can nail down a specific spot also. I don’t love the idea of him being asked to cover a bunch of differing positions before becoming established.
Right now, that should be 15, IMO.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
DMac really does solve a lot of problems, it was awesome to ses him go well. Here's hoping he can put some good performances together for the Chiefs to build on that.
I see Jordie is playing 13 for the Canes too. If he can cover midfield that also helps a lot.
Great to see both of them go well in black, even if their Super form hasn't been great this year.
I agree it’s good for him to cover there, but I’m also tempted to say that for now, at least, Jordie should stay at FB.
I really like his height back there, and long term I think Rieko is a better bet to move to 13, plus we have heaps of young ‘natural’ 13s around too (can you believe that Matt Proctor is only 25?).
So, it’s good that he can develop to cover 12/13, but I hope he can nail down a specific spot also. I don’t love the idea of him being asked to cover a bunch of differing positions before becoming established.
Right now, that should be 15, IMO.
Agree. Don't forget that DMac has more test experience at 15 than JB. The selectors will want to build that experience level up where he is needed most before mucking around with him.
That said, it will stand both DMac and JB well for RWC selection is it is known that they can cover other positions. People often forget the strict selection rules for the RWC and how injuries can derail plans easily.
Let's say the squad picks up an injury to AS during the pool and wants to rest but not replace him so he can return at latter stages. Knowing you have DMac able to play 9 adequately enough against a 'minnow' really helps. Likewise, a couple of midfield niggles that need resting could mean JBs utility value comes into play.
Basically you need at least one versatile back in the squad. If they can cover a key position as well and not just hang on the wing it's great. Didn't Slade start at 15 in one match in 2015?
Having two versatile players is great except you have to make sure you are not picking too much of a "jack of all trades, master of none."Could we see these guys do something similar to Marc Ellis and Simon Culhane in 1995?
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@crucial watched Goodhue really closely given he is from Northland. Slipped off one tackle which was his mistake. Apart from that he put himself in the right places on the field without getting the chances with half gapsetc. Noticeable that both DMAC and SBW run a lot and this case Goodhue was taking the ball from their passes in contact. As always I thought his decision making with passing and running was good. Like ALB as well so I see them both as good options, and think Laumape offers less.
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@chester-draws said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
So Ben Smith and Naholo are now past it? Haha yep just like Mccaw was past it every year for about 10 years.
Im not concerned anout our back 3 depth in the slightest.6, 8 and 2 are the areas of concern for me.
Who is going to be 6?
Will Read come back and perform at his best?So having bagged people for suggesting players that haven't had good form might be on the wane, you suggest another that might be on the wane? And you base this on his age?
Because I don't see how Read's situation is any different from Ben Smith's.
No, that was entirely based on the fact Read has just had serious back surgery and there is no guarantee of the problem being fixed long term.
Same with Coles, his concussion and knee problems may not allow him to come back the same player. So entirely different to Smith who is getting written off after a few quiet games.I really hope both Read and Coles come back well because we look much better with them there.
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@kev said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial watched Goodhue really closely given he is from Northland. Slipped off one tackle which was his mistake. Apart from that he put himself in the right places on the field without getting the chances with half gapsetc. Noticeable that both DMAC and SBW run a lot and this case Goodhue was taking the ball from their passes in contact. As always I thought his decision making with passing and running was good. Like ALB as well so I see them both as good options, and think Laumape offers less.
In this style of play, all you want from your 13 is good decisions (attack and defence) and communication to those around them.
Is it the take into contact and reset situation or the try and set someone free one? If the latter then the skills and timing of maintaining that opportunity come in.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
One thought: if we're in a tight game and DMac comes off bench I can't see ABs naturally taking BB's hands off the tiller.
Me either. DMac will come on at fullback, as he did in the 1st test. What the coaches will want are options to provide a spark if needed.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
DMac really does solve a lot of problems, it was awesome to ses him go well. Here's hoping he can put some good performances together for the Chiefs to build on that.
I see Jordie is playing 13 for the Canes too. If he can cover midfield that also helps a lot.
Great to see both of them go well in black, even if their Super form hasn't been great this year.
I agree it’s good for him to cover there, but I’m also tempted to say that for now, at least, Jordie should stay at FB.
I really like his height back there, and long term I think Rieko is a better bet to move to 13, plus we have heaps of young ‘natural’ 13s around too (can you believe that Matt Proctor is only 25?).
So, it’s good that he can develop to cover 12/13, but I hope he can nail down a specific spot also. I don’t love the idea of him being asked to cover a bunch of differing positions before becoming established.
Right now, that should be 15, IMO.
Agree. Don't forget that DMac has more test experience at 15 than JB. The selectors will want to build that experience level up where he is needed most before mucking around with him.
That said, it will stand both DMac and JB well for RWC selection is it is known that they can cover other positions. People often forget the strict selection rules for the RWC and how injuries can derail plans easily.
Let's say the squad picks up an injury to AS during the pool and wants to rest but not replace him so he can return at latter stages. Knowing you have DMac able to play 9 adequately enough against a 'minnow' really helps. Likewise, a couple of midfield niggles that need resting could mean JBs utility value comes into play.
Basically you need at least one versatile back in the squad. If they can cover a key position as well and not just hang on the wing it's great. Didn't Slade start at 15 in one match in 2015?
Having two versatile players is great except you have to make sure you are not picking too much of a "jack of all trades, master of none."Could we see these guys do something similar to Marc Ellis and Simon Culhane in 1995?
Score a shitload of points against a bunch of bonzai miniature trees?
I think the game has moved on a bit since then...
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@mn5 said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
DMac really does solve a lot of problems, it was awesome to ses him go well. Here's hoping he can put some good performances together for the Chiefs to build on that.
I see Jordie is playing 13 for the Canes too. If he can cover midfield that also helps a lot.
Great to see both of them go well in black, even if their Super form hasn't been great this year.
I agree it’s good for him to cover there, but I’m also tempted to say that for now, at least, Jordie should stay at FB.
I really like his height back there, and long term I think Rieko is a better bet to move to 13, plus we have heaps of young ‘natural’ 13s around too (can you believe that Matt Proctor is only 25?).
So, it’s good that he can develop to cover 12/13, but I hope he can nail down a specific spot also. I don’t love the idea of him being asked to cover a bunch of differing positions before becoming established.
Right now, that should be 15, IMO.
Agree. Don't forget that DMac has more test experience at 15 than JB. The selectors will want to build that experience level up where he is needed most before mucking around with him.
That said, it will stand both DMac and JB well for RWC selection is it is known that they can cover other positions. People often forget the strict selection rules for the RWC and how injuries can derail plans easily.
Let's say the squad picks up an injury to AS during the pool and wants to rest but not replace him so he can return at latter stages. Knowing you have DMac able to play 9 adequately enough against a 'minnow' really helps. Likewise, a couple of midfield niggles that need resting could mean JBs utility value comes into play.
Basically you need at least one versatile back in the squad. If they can cover a key position as well and not just hang on the wing it's great. Didn't Slade start at 15 in one match in 2015?
Having two versatile players is great except you have to make sure you are not picking too much of a "jack of all trades, master of none."Could we see these guys do something similar to Marc Ellis and Simon Culhane in 1995?
Score a shitload of points against a bunch of bonzai miniature trees?
I think the game has moved on a bit since then...
Maybe not to that extent but similar.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
Thought the debutantes, Goodhue and Frizzell, were alright without setting the world on fire. In particular, I was hoping to see a few big hits from SF, but must have missed any there were.
Early days, as both young, but quite a lot to do, in view of the completion in their spots, if they want to lock down slots.
I didn't watch Frizzell that closely, but Goodhue certainly didn't look out of place at this level. Probably needs more confidence to show out, but then again when your 10 is taking the risks the centres need to be conservative.
What he didn't do is show anything more than the player most think is at risk (ALB). If he wants to knock him aside he needs to grab his chances.Read an interesting observation the other day that maybe SBW looked so good was that he was operating outside DMac and playing close to the advantage line. That has some merit. Think when SBW has looked really good in the past and it was outside Cruden who would also take the ball to the line, short pass or take a half gap.
That 'light on the feet stepping 10' does seem to bring the best out of him.On the assumption Crotty and SBW are locks and AB selectors seem to have a preference for a bigger 12 I'd have thought Laumape has the edge on ALB, and particularly JG. So it could well end up a shoot out between ALB and JG for 13, and I concur that the new man hasn't done enough (yet?).
IIRC we've agreed on Cruden/SBW before. AC often played very flat and challenged the line, with SBW coming in flat on a line close to him. If AC passed he'd create a little extra space for SBW, who was lethal in that situation.
SBW has never looked quite as good outside DC or BB. Nonu on the other hand never quite sparked outside Crudes, but we all know what he did the G10OAT!
I just think it may be interesting tactically for the coaches with that knowledge.
If you know that DMac/SBW can create together, do you set up the plan to get that combo on against a flat defence if you need to?
Do you have that combo in mind even with keeping BB on the field?
Could we see a scenario where DMac comes off the bench and pushes BB back to 15?
How do you fit both BFA and JB into this scenario?
If DMac becomes important in this planning then we go to the RWC with 2 10s and a utility 10. How does that affect the mix for the 4 outside backs given that he also covers 15. If both BFA and JB are there that only leaves room for two specialist wingers.Will all be interesting.
Lots of good ideas.
One thought: if we're in a tight game and DMac comes off bench I can't see ABs naturally taking BB's hands off the tiller. In easy games it wouldn't matter, but that said would be lethal.
What if the game is close because Beauden is struggling to make it happen at 10?
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test 3:
On the DMac debate, a few comments:
Overall he played well at 10. Some sensational attacking and put pace on the ball with his passing (c.f. Pollard in Poms 1 & 2). SBW looked great outside him.
Has got some boot on him for a wee fella! Yes he kicked it too far on one obvious occasion, but that was unlucky, given he kicked from within his 22. The great D.B. Clarke would have been impressed with that yardage!
Not convinced, though, on his backline generalship. Give him a dry track, good service (much better this week, Nugget) and a tiring oppo and he is mainly excellent. But still throwing some minus 7 passes, which will bite us at some point if not sorted.
The big question for me is how would be do on a wet day, soft pitch and trench warfare? That is where 10s like Sexton are worth their weight in gold. As I think Zinny used to say, it's when the scrum is going backwards you see just how good the no. 8 is. Bear in mind that Japan in October, could well have those conditions, and we have Boks in our group.
My inclination is the Mo'unga would shine better on such a day, although I acknowledge the Lions match didn't support that theory. Sometimes we'll need a first five who realises that nothing's on and will play territory by nudging it into the corner.
Hope to see more of both of them, but for me DMac is ideal off the bench but not necessarily the answer if BB crocked.
Did he have a bad game? From my short memory, I laid the blame on the captains arrogance. If they took the shots at goal, Crusaders would've won, and Richie would've been a hero and listed ahead of DMac on the pecking order.
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On the Rieko Ioane debate, an article from Rugby Heaven :
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Long term his future may be at 13, but right now he needs to play wing (looking at you Tana) to continue to polish his game, his cause isnt being helped by playing 12, or even 13 at the blues, assuming he stays there...
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I really don't understand the insistence of moving Rieko to 13 right now. We have ALB, Goodhue (both longterm prospects) and Crotty already. 12 is a bigger issue for us but there's no way we should be wasting his acceleration/pace in that position (Tana FFS).
Let him play 11 until he gets 50+ tries and then move him into the midfield.
