Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5
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Very good work PH, great to get a perspective from outside the long white cloud.
The three tours this time are going to be crackers. France are never easy, and are one NH side that don't seem to have a mental block about playing NZ in NZ.
The SA Eng games could make or break a coach - either way, there is loads riding on it.
Aus Ire shoudl be cracking tight games. Should be great to watch.
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@booboo said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
Across the two tests, Ireland scored 36 points (when tries were worth 4), Campbell kicked 28 of them
So they scored two tries in two tests? Or did Campbell nab a couple of 4 pointers? Was capable of scoring a try or two.
Pattison, the Irish scrum-half scored two tries in the first test.
The second test was a tight contest - 9-3 including two droppies from Ollie. Remember watching him and Ward - they were bloody good. Met them at a charity function a year or two ago - very friendly and approachable and willing to have a good natter about the tour and other games. I think I nearly bowed when I was introduced to them. -
@nzzp said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
Very good work PH, great to get a perspective from outside the long white cloud.
The three tours this time are going to be crackers. France are never easy, and are one NH side that don't seem to have a mental block about playing NZ in NZ.
The SA Eng games could make or break a coach - either way, there is loads riding on it.
Aus Ire shoudl be cracking tight games. Should be great to watch.
Agreed. When the Tour schedule came out in 2010, these were the ones that I thought were the most balanced and competitive. You’re quite right about the French - they simply don’t seem to buy into the nerves of an NZ tour.
SA v Eng has lots of matching styles and colonial clashes. Aus v Irl will be a Paddy Love/Hate/Love fest. I’ve loads of mates going down, and am still thinking about it myself (never been). -
@booboo said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
Great write up
@pot-hale said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
... old-style tours involving matches against club teams as well as one or two test matches
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... including two tests, and lost just once against local club, Sydney.
...[Pedant]
If I may be picky most of the other tour matches would likely be against state based rep teams. Even Sydney would be a rep team (usually indistinguishable with NSW ... very few Country players would make the state team).Most places would refer to them as provincial unions. Not sure in Aus as they're based around States.
Just important to distinguish them from clubs.
[/Pedant]Don’t mind pedantry when I’m wrong, Booboo. Thanks for that, I’ll make sure to correct it for re-posting elsewhere.
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@pot-hale said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
Don’t mind pedantry when I’m wrong, Booboo. Thanks for that, I’ll make sure to correct it for re-posting elsewhere.
also drives some weird behaviour. We dno't have 'clubs' or 'clubrooms' per se - just venues that people play in. Strong provincial loyalty, but followign a union has a different feel to following a club.
Also leads to a more collective ownership model (the provincial unions are owned by the clubs as I understand it), with some revenue flow from NZR
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I was going to include a tour in 2003 that included a test against Australia and Tonga and Samoa - rather quaintly (and probably inaccurately) titled ‘2003 Ireland Rugby Union Tour of the South Seas’. Ireland were hockeyed 45-16 in Perth, but won convincingly in Apia and Nuku’Alofa with a young fella called O’Gara stepping in for Humphreys.
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@pot-hale said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@booboo said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
Across the two tests, Ireland scored 36 points (when tries were worth 4), Campbell kicked 28 of them
So they scored two tries in two tests? Or did Campbell nab a couple of 4 pointers? Was capable of scoring a try or two.
Pattison, the Irish scrum-half scored two tries in the first test.
The second test was a tight contest - 9-3 including two droppies from Ollie. Remember watching him and Ward - they were bloody good. Met them at a charity function a year or two ago - very friendly and approachable and willing to have a good natter about the tour and other games. I think I nearly bowed when I was introduced to them.Have been re-watching some old games including the Lions 1983 tour to NZ. By God Campbell was good. He really shone in a losing cause that year. It was great to see his kicking routine, line up the ball, step back, up on tip-toes then bang! Over the bar. Took about a quarter of the time blokes do now.
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@pot-hale
If Irish fortunes started to change in 2002 until peaking in 2009, surely the man primarily responsible was the man who was coach for most of that time?
It certainly looked like it to me at the time.
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@chester-draws said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@pot-hale
If Irish fortunes started to change in 2002 until peaking in 2009, surely the man primarily responsible was the man who was coach for most of that time?
It certainly looked like it to me at the time.
Yes. Although, there’s an argument that Gatland started the foundations post RWC Lens 1999 loss to Argentina. Eddie O’Sullivan moved them on in terms of back play but was always the nearly man and it took Kidney to get them over the line in 09.
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@pot-hale said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@chester-draws said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@pot-hale
If Irish fortunes started to change in 2002 until peaking in 2009, surely the man primarily responsible was the man who was coach for most of that time?
It certainly looked like it to me at the time.
Yes.
No need to flower it all up mate.
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@catogrande said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@pot-hale said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@chester-draws said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@pot-hale
If Irish fortunes started to change in 2002 until peaking in 2009, surely the man primarily responsible was the man who was coach for most of that time?
It certainly looked like it to me at the time.
Yes.
No need to flower it all up mate.
:). I gave in and added more detail.
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I'm not really suggesting Gatland moved them all the way to the top, because especially then he wasn't too innovative with the backs.
But he seemed to bring in a harder edge somehow. Instead of running around like fierce headless chooks, the pack started to operate as a pack.
It's why I think he'd be excellent at the Blues. They don't need finesse at this point.
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@pot-hale said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@nzzp said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
Very good work PH, great to get a perspective from outside the long white cloud.
The three tours this time are going to be crackers. France are never easy, and are one NH side that don't seem to have a mental block about playing NZ in NZ.
The SA Eng games could make or break a coach - either way, there is loads riding on it.
Aus Ire shoudl be cracking tight games. Should be great to watch.
Agreed. When the Tour schedule came out in 2010, these were the ones that I thought were the most balanced and competitive. You’re quite right about the French - they simply don’t seem to buy into the nerves of an NZ tour.
SA v Eng has lots of matching styles and colonial clashes. Aus v Irl will be a Paddy Love/Hate/Love fest. I’ve loads of mates going down, and am still thinking about it myself (never been).Sorry in advance to lads (and maybe factor into your multi's). Last AB's game I went to in NZ was vs France at Carisbrook. We lost from memory.Last two in Aussie I have been to were Abs vs Aussie in syd2015(loss)and suncorp last year.
Will be in dunedin this year....
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@chester-draws said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
I'm not really suggesting Gatland moved them all the way to the top, because especially then he wasn't too innovative with the backs.
But he seemed to bring in a harder edge somehow. Instead of running around like fierce headless chooks, the pack started to operate as a pack.
It's why I think he'd be excellent at the Blues. They don't need finesse at this point.
I think I’m confused by your original comment/question about the person in charge between 2002 and 2009 being responsible. Eddie O’Sullivan was coach from 2001-2008.
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@pot-hale
Well, that serves me right for checking on my phone that I got the right details. The page on Gatland didn't line the dates up right.
So, having not used my phone this time, I now have the correct dates.
I think the turn-around dated from Gatland, not O'Sullivan. I followed his career closely at the time because I was so pissed off with the Chiefs letting him go and keeping Foster.
By the time Gatland was sacked he got them to inches from winning the 6 Nations. They went from being smashed by the likes of the All Blacks to being a credible threat. There was a huge change, although we tend not to notice it now because results have continued to improve.
He couldn't get the politics right though.
Not that it was necessarily just him or O'Sullivan. The other huge contributor was the restructuring of European rugby. Professionalism, like Argentina, allowed the sport to be properly developed. Having Irish provinces in the Heineken Cup was a major benefit, helping to stem the flow overseas. Close attention to contracting, which is easier when your provinces are successful, followed.
While the coaches are key, back-room stuff is important too.
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@chester-draws said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@pot-hale
Well, that serves me right for checking on my phone that I got the right details. The page on Gatland didn't line the dates up right.
So, having not used my phone this time, I now have the correct dates.
I think the turn-around dated from Gatland, not O'Sullivan. I followed his career closely at the time because I was so pissed off with the Chiefs letting him go and keeping Foster.
By the time Gatland was sacked he got them to inches from winning the 6 Nations. They went from being smashed by the likes of the All Blacks to being a credible threat. There was a huge change, although we tend not to notice it now because results have continued to improve.
He couldn't get the politics right though.
Not that it was necessarily just him or O'Sullivan. The other huge contributor was the restructuring of European rugby. Professionalism, like Argentina, allowed the sport to be properly developed. Having Irish provinces in the Heineken Cup was a major benefit, helping to stem the flow overseas. Close attention to contracting, which is easier when your provinces are successful, followed.
While the coaches are key, back-room stuff is important too.
Yep back room stuff was very important. The decision by IRFU to enter the provinces into the Celtic League in 2001/02 helped enormously, and brought home a number of players, along with introducing Category A central contracts for a small number of players. O’Sullivan was Gatland’s backs coach and it was his inventive back plays that led to some of the new success that Ireland enjoyed and likely what got him the top job when Gatland got ousted. O’Sullivan and an IRFU guy, Eddie Wigglesworth, came up with the idea of the playing limit times of 25 games max in 2004, and those have been in place ever since. Although going by some UK media stories earlier this year, you’d swear they were only invented last September... 😏
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@Pot-Hale, and for that matter, any other Irish 'Ferners, will you be making a journey to Aus to support your team?
The reason I'm asking as myself and a good Irish-Aussie mate are planning on attending the Sydney test at Allianz Stadium on the 23rd of June and would be keen for a pre/post match TFS drink.
Doesn't have to be on game day either.
Can't recall Sydney 'Fern gathering for quite some time.
Cheers
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@roninwc said in Paddy on Tour Down Under - Number 5:
@Pot-Hale, and for that matter, any other Irish 'Ferners, will you be making a journey to Aus to support your team?
The reason I'm asking as myself and a good Irish-Aussie mate are planning on attending the Sydney test at Allianz Stadium on the 23rd of June and would be keen for a pre/post match TFS drink.
Doesn't have to be on game day either.
Can't recall Sydney 'Fern gathering for quite some time.
Cheers
@NTA needs no excuse to escape Western Sydney for a pint
