NH club rugby
-
@Kruse said in NH club rugby:
@MiketheSnow said in NH club rugby:
@Pot-Hale said in NH club rugby:
The two SA clubs being axed from Super Rugby - Cheetahs and Kings - are likely to join the PRO12 from this September. Negotiations have been underway with Martin Anayi, PRO12 CEO and SARU over the last number of months.
PRO12 have been planning to move to a two conference structure for the 2017/18 season with a new TV deal with Sky Sports up for negotiation. The SA teams will bring a €12m deal with them including travel costs and SA TV rights monies.
Based where?
Europe or SA?
I can't see any official news released about it,
I see the figure "12m" used as a description of the total current TV revenue (in £),
And the assumption seems to be teams would be based in SA.But yeah, every bit of news I can see about it is just quoting somebody else talking about the possibility - no concrete facts/confirmation.
They couldn't say anything about it officially for legal reasons until the cull meeting was held in SA on 7 July.
From The Scotsman:
*The move was as good as confirmed by the chairman of the Welsh Rugby Union, Gareth Davies. “There are discussions going on, which people are aware of, between the Pro12 and South African rugby union and the franchises down there,” Davies told the BBC in Wales. “There is a desire from the South African teams I think to join the Pro12 and I think the Pro12 would like them to join. “The Pro12 itself is a cross-border competition already and this just extends this. It makes for a promising and exciting future, if it did happen. “At the moment it looks like the two teams from Super Rugby that will not be in the competition next year will join [the Pro12]. I suspect there will be interest further afield from South African teams as well. “It just expands the tournament and I think it’s an opportunity to develop the game within the northern hemisphere. “There is still a lot of work to be done in terms of the legal complexities with issues such as broadcasting, commercial and, most important, player welfare with all the travelling that has to be done and the logistics associated with that.” Ever since two Italian teams were invited to join the competition in season 2010-11, the old “Celtic League” has lacked any geographical integrity and the open borders policy has just been further extended.
As Davies’ concedes, the logistics are horrible, especially at a time when player welfare is at the top of everyone’s agenda. The flight time from London to Jo’burg is 12 hours and you can probably add two more flights at either end for almost every team in the league. The return journey will feel twice as long with all the bruises a modern players picks up although there was a suggestion that the two African franchises may play some “home” games in London. It will be interesting to see English Premiership Rugby’s reaction to the Pro14 parking tanks on the their lawn."*
It's unlikely that the English Premiership rep body, PRL, or the English RFU would be enthused by the idea. But Saracens is being rumoured as a possible 'home ground' to play some of their games, and other games would be played in SA with probably teams travelling south to play.
There's a rumour around that PRL got in touch with PRO12 when the news first broke about the SA teams suggesting that maybe a British & Irish league might be a good idea after all. (It's been touted for a long while with Welsh lips salivating at the prospect, but the Premiership have never seen a reason to consider it until now.).
Discussions got started and everything was going grand until certain club chairmen suggested that the way it would work would be the PRO12 teams would form a second division to the Premiership. Talks ended abruptly after that.
Nigel Wray, owner of Saracens, has strong SA business interests in the club and has been looking for ways to bring SA teams into the picture with English and French teams, potentially to create a European/Global comp of some sort.
If the PRO12 wants this idea to succeed, then I'd advise them staying well away from Wray and Saracens who have no interest in seeing the PRO12 develop any financial or audience clout, but are very interested in seeing how the SA development could be turned to their advantage.
-
so who pays for it? Where do the players come from? How does the sides still existing fix any of the problems that the reduction of Super Rugby was supposed to fix? So the SARU still has to pay the extra 60-odd players, and those players are still diluting the talent pool in SA. And they still have to travel. And the league is played over summer.
And then they are supposed to compete in a league where everyone else is getting paid Euro, but they are getting paid in South African dirt money?
I assume they now get a cut of the Pro12 broadcasting revenue.
This can't end well for someone.
-
Not sure that having the two worst SA teams added to the mix strengthens the PRO 12/14s value to the broadcasters.
-
@Disgusted-of-TW said in NH club rugby:
Not sure that having the two worst SA teams added to the mix strengthens the PRO 12/14s value to the broadcasters.
@Disgusted-of-TW said in NH club rugby:
Not sure that having the two worst SA teams added to the mix strengthens the PRO 12/14s value to the broadcasters.
The season launch was deferred from last weekend to July 15 apparently. Super sport have already put a TV deal on the table. There's talk of a 12m deal on top of existing TV deal with Sky and terrestrial. Each current PRO 12 club will receive an additional 500k.
The current PRO12 tv deal is up for renegotiation so that will likely see an increase from Sky along with increase from Guinness flagship sponsor who are both interested in African market.
-
@mariner4life said in NH club rugby:
so who pays for it? Where do the players come from? How does the sides still existing fix any of the problems that the reduction of Super Rugby was supposed to fix? So the SARU still has to pay the extra 60-odd players, and those players are still diluting the talent pool in SA. And they still have to travel. And the league is played over summer.
And then they are supposed to compete in a league where everyone else is getting paid Euro, but they are getting paid in South African dirt money?
I assume they now get a cut of the Pro12 broadcasting revenue.
This can't end well for someone.
Don't have all the answers but here's my take.
SARU and SuperSport are coming up with initial money. The players come from the existing Cheetahs and Kings squads.
The reduction of Super Rugby was partly driven by the comp's broadcasters - they wanted teams cut to have a better format.
SARU may be playing a tactical game with this move. I've said previously that SARU was best positioned to have a foot in both camps - now it looks like that's what they're doing. It remains to be seen whether any of the other SA teams follow suit - perhaps to link up with English/French clubs if not PRO12.
They still have to travel, but not as much in a 7 team conference and in the same time zone.
The new global season structure where the NH season ends a month later will see PRO12/14 start at end September then break for 3 weeks of November tests and then potentially 7 weeks of European Cup pool games and quarterfinals, then 5-6 weeks of 6 Nations before resuming at end of March and finishing in June. It's not clear yet if the SA teams will participate in the European Cup the following season 2018/19 when potentially the two US teams may be added to the two conferences.
Top 3 from each conference will go into playoffs with no country qualification guarantee. Make up of conferences unknown.
More detail may get revealed this weekend at the rumoured launch. It would appear Celtic Rugby Limited (IRFU, WRU, SRU) which owns PRO12 will be closed/renamed and a new company in which SARU will also be a shareholder is being set up.
Separate meeting held with FIR this week in which they've been given a year to shape up or ship out.
A lot of change. Hopefully it will have the desired positive effect.
-
Many thanks Pot Hale.
If this moves the game closer to a common season then it can only be a good thing.
And if it is a success, it will be very interesting to see the English, French, Kiwi, Argie and Aussie reaction to it
-
@MiketheSnow said in NH club rugby:
Many thanks Pot Hale.
If this moves the game closer to a common season then it can only be a good thing.
And if it is a success, it will be very interesting to see the English, French, Kiwi, Argie and Aussie reaction to it
The English/French reaction will be the most interesting/important one. PRL would appear to be spitting tacks at this development because they didn't think Anayi could pull it off. BT Sport, having got Premiership rights and just recently won the European Cup rights from Sky, are probably less than impressed at the club chairmen who managed to piss the PRO12 off. They do not want Sky to suddenly step into the limelight with the potential markets opening up for PRO12/14. The Irish-American angle in US markets may also help but I think that's more of a long shot with the proposed two teams based in possibly Houston and Philadelphia.
It wouldn't surprise me if there was some PRL-inspired move at some point to try draw in some of the other SA teams away from Super Rugby.
-
@cgrant said in NH club rugby:
I remember seing him play alongside Nathan Hughes in the ITM Cup with Auckland. In terms of physicality, both were impressive. It's a shame they left.
Yep. At the time, Auckland were blessed with blindsides.
Luatua, Kaino, Akira, and Seu.Now they're all leaving.
I was really surprised with Edwards leaving. I thought he was going to take over once Kaino retired.
-
@Pot-Hale
There's also the club owners Vs union battle going on which is interesting and might prevent any premiership merger with the South Africans. -
@mimic said in NH club rugby:
@cgrant said in NH club rugby:
I remember seing him play alongside Nathan Hughes in the ITM Cup with Auckland. In terms of physicality, both were impressive. It's a shame they left.
Yep. At the time, Auckland were blessed with blindsides.
Luatua, Kaino, Akira, and Seu.Now they're all leaving.
I was really surprised with Edwards leaving. I thought he was going to take over once Kaino retired.
All? Is Akira moving to the Chiefs?
-
New Zebre side controlled by Italian Rugby Federation to compete in Pro12
There will still be two Italian sides in the Pro12 for the 2017-18 season despite the Italian Rugby Federation [FIR] taking control of Zebre. Zebre released a tweet confirming the takeover and future participation in the Pro12 and European Challenge Cup. An FIR spokesperson told BBC Wales that Italy will continue to have two teams in the Pro12, honouring an agreement with the Celtic Rugby Board. The new side will be called Zebre Rugby Club and will still be based in Parma. This replaces the previous incarnation Zebre Rugby Srl and will be under new management, playing along with Treviso as the two Italian representatives in the league. Doubts emerged about Zebre's future after players were reportedly not paid for two months and there are still concerns about whether they will play beyond the 2017-18 season. A fresh company called Zebre Rugby Club Company has been created and a new chief executive and directors have been appointed. Meetings will take place this week to determine the rebranding of the new side from the old organisation, with matters such as contracts and insurance to be discussed with players and staff. The uncertainty comes with an official announcement this week expected by Celtic Rugby, the organisation responsible for the Pro12, on the expansion of the league with two South African sides. The Southern Kings and Cheetahs are set to join sides from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy for the 2017-18 season to expand the league to 14 sides, with a two conference system being suggested. There have been plans mooted to expand the league even further, with a North American franchise being explored. -
@Stargazer said in NH club rugby:
New Zebre side controlled by Italian Rugby Federation to compete in Pro12
There will still be two Italian sides in the Pro12 for the 2017-18 season despite the Italian Rugby Federation [FIR] taking control of Zebre. Zebre released a tweet confirming the takeover and future participation in the Pro12 and European Challenge Cup. An FIR spokesperson told BBC Wales that Italy will continue to have two teams in the Pro12, honouring an agreement with the Celtic Rugby Board. The new side will be called Zebre Rugby Club and will still be based in Parma. This replaces the previous incarnation Zebre Rugby Srl and will be under new management, playing along with Treviso as the two Italian representatives in the league. Doubts emerged about Zebre's future after players were reportedly not paid for two months and there are still concerns about whether they will play beyond the 2017-18 season. A fresh company called Zebre Rugby Club Company has been created and a new chief executive and directors have been appointed. Meetings will take place this week to determine the rebranding of the new side from the old organisation, with matters such as contracts and insurance to be discussed with players and staff. The uncertainty comes with an official announcement this week expected by Celtic Rugby, the organisation responsible for the Pro12, on the expansion of the league with two South African sides. The Southern Kings and Cheetahs are set to join sides from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy for the 2017-18 season to expand the league to 14 sides, with a two conference system being suggested. There have been plans mooted to expand the league even further, with a North American franchise being explored.They sure are running it tight to season start. I have my season ticket already and still don't know what I'm sitting down to in 6 weeks time.
-
@Pot-Hale Sounds like a logistical nightmare, for Pro12/4 itself, but especially for clubs and venues.
-
I actually think the Pro 12/14 sounds quite workable. From a timing point of view. With it being effectively in hiatus during the height of the SH summer/NH winter.
I was very dubious. Thinking of examples like the Blues just playing in mid-summer Tokyo.
So the 2 SAF franchises will effectively go:
- closing half of P14 season in SH Autumn
- then mid-winter. Presumably the SAF season is structured so they can play either/or club rugby, or Vodacom Cup, or maybe even Currie Cup.
- opening half of P14 season in Spring
- hiatus in summer (have their off season
But that traveling will be the issue. Especially if it ever goes trans-Atlantic.
-
I don't know how sustainable a Pro14 will be. But in the short term I'm glad that these 2 SAF teams with high numbers of players 'of colour', and that actually are improving- will stay pro for at least a few more years.
As an outside I'm wanting the forced 'transformation' stage to end as quickly as possible. So that they can be great again. I also don't want their non-transformation players giving up in greater numbers that a reduction to 4 pro teams would trigger.
Long term. I'd want Super Rugby if it is to stay a whole of SH enterprise to be something like 2 conferences (South-Atlantic & Oceania), with just the playoffs involving cross games between these 2 halves of the Southern Hemisphere.
My hunch is that involving Japan and other North Pacific nations is not tenable with keeping South Atlantic.
Don't know which way we are going.
I also don't see USA involvement with Pro 14 being tenable, especially if it involves SAF.
I don't see USA involvement in either of these 2 tournaments being tenable until they are at a stage where they have effectively a North American conference, eg enough pro teams in North America that they are self sufficient in their own league and it isn't until play off time that the big travelling starts.
-
@Rapido said in NH club rugby:
I actually think the Pro 12/14 sounds quite workable. From a timing point of view. With it being effectively in hiatus during the height of the SH summer/NH winter.
I was very dubious. Thinking of examples like the Blues just playing in mid-summer Tokyo.
So the 2 SAF franchises will effectively go:
- closing half of P14 season in SH Autumn
- then mid-winter. Presumably the SAF season is structured so they can play either/or club rugby, or Vodacom Cup, or maybe even Currie Cup.
- opening half of P14 season in Spring
- hiatus in summer (have their off season
But that traveling will be the issue. Especially if it ever goes trans-Atlantic.
Can you translate that into month names?
-
Quiz question for viewers:
What do over 200 Kiwis, over 200 South Africans, over 100 Aussies and over 250 Pacific Islanders have in common?
Answer: They all have Pro contracts with Northern Hemisphere rugby clubs as their season is about to start. Those are the numbers before King and Cheetahs join Pro14 and Force or Rebels get wiped, and those missing 2018 Super rugby contracts look for short-term contracts. I did a quick review of rosters and found 215 from NZ, 207 from SA, 102 from Australia, 90 from Fiji, 88 Tonga and 66 Samoa. It is staggering indeed. No wonder the deteriorating quality in depth in super rugby. I can only see it getting worse with 3 less teams now.
Bristol has 29 foreign imports, London Irish 28, Newcastle 27, Narbonne 24, Worcester 22, Oyonnax 22, and Timisoara and Clermont 20 each by my quick counts. That includes players from European neighbours - not just from down under.
I am interested to know what people think about the scale of this. Surely an Islanders franchise must be set up to protect Islands rugby.
-
Statement: Expansion to Guinness PRO14 Championship
Celtic Rugby and the South African Rugby Union have today confirmed that the Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings will join an expanded Guinness PRO14 tournament in time for the upcoming 2017/18 season. A long-term strategic agreement has been signed by both parties which will allow the participation of two South African franchises in the renamed Guinness PRO14 Championship. The agreement means that the Championship will take place across the northern and southern hemispheres and marks the first phase of expansion as the Guinness PRO14 becomes a truly global tournament. This move will contribute to the drive for ever higher standards that we demand across the tournament and provide greater resources to our clubs who will compete in the most testing environment the Championship has ever created. We can also reassure supporters across the Championship that all current home and away Derby games have been protected – these fixtures are sacrosanct to the tournament and those tribal rivalries are just one element of what makes the Guinness PRO14 so special. With a new format, new teams and new audiences the Guinness PRO14 – which leads World Rugby statistics for Positive Play – will hit even greater heights in 2017/18.NEW FORMAT The addition of the Toyota Cheetahs and the Southern Kings will require the Championship to introduce a new Conference format as a league format is not suited to a 14-team cross-border tournament. The Guinness PRO14 will adopt a two-conference model which will allows for the new clubs to be added into the Championship without need to add extra rounds in 2017/18. **Conference A** Munster (IRFU) Ospreys (WRU) Glasgow Warriors (SRU) Cardiff Blues (WRU) Connacht (IRFU) Zebre Rugby Club (FIR) Toyota Cheetahs (SA Rugby) **Conference B** Scarlets (WRU) Leinster (IRFU) Ulster (IRFU) Edinburgh (SRU) Benetton Rugby (FIR) Dragons (WRU) Southern Kings (SA Rugby)* Each conference will contain 7 teams with an equal split of teams from each union * Every team plays 21 regular season games * Every team to play each other at least once * All Home & Away Derby fixtures will remain in place * Italian, Scottish and South African teams will play an additional Derby fixture to even out the schedule (e.g. Edinburgh will play Glasgow Warriors three times) * The Guinness PRO14 Final Series will now include Quarter-Finals allowing six clubs to reach the knock-out stages (teams 1-3 from each Conference) * The top 3 clubs from each conference will qualify for the Champions Cup while the team with the highest points total outside of those six teams across both conferences will claim the final Champions Cup place **South African clubs will not be eligible to qualify for EPCR tournaments at present** The Conferences need to fulfil two criteria. First, there must be an equal number of teams from each union in both conferences. Secondly, there must be a competitive balance based upon the previous season’s final placings that feed into union rankings. To create an equal number of teams per union each conference will contain: * 2 Irish teams; 2 Welsh; 1 Italian; 1 Scottish, 1 South African Additionally, for the entrance of the South African teams their Super Rugby final placings were used for ranking. Please note: To maintain competitive balance the Conferences will be reset each season based upon rankings from the previous campaign.FIXTURES The regular season will consist of 21 Rounds, which is one game less than the previous format. These Rounds will be made up from a combination of: * 12 Home & Away games in your team’s conference * 7 Home OR Away games against each team from the other conference * An additional 2 Rounds to ensure all derby fixtures are played home & away (this means Scottish, Italian, South African clubs play three derbies) The fixture list has been drafted for all 21 rounds, Rounds 1-13 will be confirmed next week (commencing August 7) after the Championship’s broadcast partners have made their selections for live television broadcasts and the clubs have been consulted.
