All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
-
@Tim said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Winning the 2015 world cup has made people very soft.
We played like garbage in this series. We lost to Ireland last year, and were lucky that Australia and South Africa were so bad.
If you don't get upset about drawing a three match series at home then there's something wrong with you.
So this. Last year people were writing up all sorts of end of year reviews trying to gloss over the loss to Ireland as 'not defining the year' and writing at length about how 2016 had been a great year etc.
Harsh as it is, in ten years time, all history will remember is that in 2016 the All Blacks lost to Ireland for the first time since William Webb Ellis picked up the ball and ran with it. Kids picking up an almanack for the first time won't be worried about the journey or rebuilding post World Cup... ditto the 'historic first drawn series against the Lions'. What's made the All Blacks special for many years is that they just don't lose to the likes of Scotland or Japan like the Wallabies or the Springboks do.
"Ah, so 2016 was the first time we lost to Ireland, ah, so what happened the next year..." and so on. The joys and the pressures of expectations on the All Blacks.
Which makes it curious when the guy firing shots at Gatland the week before suddenly starts back peddling with 'just a game' talk leading into the third test...
-
@nzzp said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Donsteppa said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@SammyC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
For all those saying Gatland isn't fit to coach the ABs,
Graham Henry won 11 consecutive games as Wales coach, but won no silverware. And failed miserably as a Lions coach.
Steve Hansen won no silverware as Wales coach.
Gatland has won silverware for Wales and won & shared a series as Lions coach.
Give him the best cattle and he may become the best farmer.
And I'm not a Gatland fanboy, but appreciate what he's achieved.
At this stage I'd prefer gatland to foster.
I'd prefer a collective voting panel of the Fern to Foster.
Can we finally shift Dagg to 10, and Ardie to 12? What could possibly go wrong ...
Bring back Carl Hayman to #8, play Toeava everywhere from prop to water boy...
-
@Donsteppa said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@SammyC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
For all those saying Gatland isn't fit to coach the ABs,
Graham Henry won 11 consecutive games as Wales coach, but won no silverware. And failed miserably as a Lions coach.
Steve Hansen won no silverware as Wales coach.
Gatland has won silverware for Wales and won & shared a series as Lions coach.
Give him the best cattle and he may become the best farmer.
And I'm not a Gatland fanboy, but appreciate what he's achieved.
At this stage I'd prefer gatland to foster.
I'd prefer a collective voting panel of the Fern to Foster.
-
@SammyC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Utterly ridiculous that Jordie wasn't kicking.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11736133
He probably kicked better during the Lions series than he did last year. But yeah it has always been a concern and he's also barely kicked during the Super season. Giraffe has.
At the end of the day, if players had been able to hold onto the fucking ball and not make idiotic decisions, BBs kicking would never have been an issue. About 6 tries were probably bombed last night.
-
If you dont win, you lose.
While things are not ideal right now, I certainly dont think things are as bad as some are making out.
Chicago was a poor decision to run with the 2nd row we did, while maybe not the winning/losing, but was a big deal, but this was forced upon us by injuries to our top 3 locks.
We also had Crotty, SBW, Smith out for test 2/3 (obviously SBW did start test 2...) and then Naholo, Ioane for this one, I dont think their loss, particularly Crotty & Smith can be understated.
Both are creators and organisors, 2 of the main things we lacked in the past 2 weeks.
-
@canefan said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Donsteppa said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@SammyC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
For all those saying Gatland isn't fit to coach the ABs,
Graham Henry won 11 consecutive games as Wales coach, but won no silverware. And failed miserably as a Lions coach.
Steve Hansen won no silverware as Wales coach.
Gatland has won silverware for Wales and won & shared a series as Lions coach.
Give him the best cattle and he may become the best farmer.
And I'm not a Gatland fanboy, but appreciate what he's achieved.
At this stage I'd prefer gatland to foster.
I'd prefer a collective voting panel of the Fern to Foster.
A better designed horse than the All Blacks backline regressing over the last three weeks
-
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
If you dont win, you lose.
While things are not ideal right now, I certainly dont think things are as bad as some are making out.
Chicago was a poor decision to run with the 2nd row we did, while maybe not the winning/losing, but was a big deal, but this was forced upon us by injuries to our top 3 locks.
We also had Crotty, SBW, Smith out for test 2/3 (obviously SBW did start test 2...) and then Naholo, Ioane for this one, I dont think their loss, particularly Crotty & Smith can be understated.
Both are creators and organisors, 2 of the main things we lacked in the past 2 weeks.
Not to mention Dane Coles out for the series, Ben Smith out for all but the whole series. It is disappointing we lost but at the end of the day our uncharacteristic lack of killer instinct and execution cost us games 2 & 3 (with or without SBW's RC). The replacements played ok but the little upgrades you get from having guys like Coles Crotty and BFA out there make a big difference IMHO
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
For all those saying Gatland isn't fit to coach the ABs,
Graham Henry won 11 consecutive games as Wales coach, but won no silverware. And failed miserably as a Lions coach.
Steve Hansen won no silverware as Wales coach.
Gatland has won silverware for Wales and won & shared a series as Lions coach.
Give him the best cattle and he may become the best farmer.
And I'm not a Gatland fanboy, but appreciate what he's achieved.
Gatland's coached Wales for about 25 years. He was bound to win something in that time. Saying Henry failed miserably as Lions coach is incredibly harsh.
I don't want him as ab coach because he's a crybaby fuckwit. Had he been on the end of that reffing decision you would never hear the end of it.
Yep , getting back to the baseline for biggest fuckwit coaches of the pro era - Woodward . I doubt even he would stoop to the embarrassing whining that resulted in Carters one match ban a few years back. He probably would have had a PowerPoint presentation though.
-
@canefan oh Coles, yeah, well he's been out so long you forget about him!
Yeah we lacked the finesse in both games that were there for the taking...I guess the consolation is Laumape, JB, ALB, Ioane will have learnt alot about where they need to be to win at this level, and given how young they are, with some others waiting in the wings, that bodes well long term.
Last year probably papered over some cracks that the leaving of Mealamu, Woody, McCaw, Nonu & Smith left
-
Hopefully we look back, after raising Bill in Tokyo in 2 years time, and look at this as one of the things that kept the group on it's toes. As far as positives go Shag has unearthed another gem from the Barrett family mine, Ioane looked pretty decent out there and Laumape did not shame himself either, so three players who could potentially feature in Japan
-
One thing I find funny is that although some on here have used this result to decry our period of dominance over, people still don't really rate the Lions at all. Itoje is probably England's best player and had a great season last year but in the team of the year voting people still overwhelmingly went for Whitelock and Retallick. Similarly, I bet most on here would take Smith over Murray, Ben Smith over Liam Williams, Barrett over Sexton or Farrell, Cane over O'Brien, Read over Faletau, Kaino over Warburton or whatever. Players like Folau don't even get a look in.
In the World XV last year the only foreigners who made it were McGrath, Isa, Henshaw and Simon Zebo. 11 of the 15 were New Zealanders. The strange thing is that the only international coach we rate on par with Hansen is Eddie Jones.
I'm just saying that if people truly think our golden era is over and we are back in the pack then maybe people should start actually rating some foreign rugby players above our own ones. It's like some people want to say we aren't so good now but we are still much better than everyone else.
-
-
@antipodean haha those bloody Barrett kids!
He sholda done that instead of going for the try
-
Christ , I've gone and done it now. Say Woodwards name three times and he shows up and makes an utter cock of himself.
-
Nowe that I'm sober, Poite should be held to account for this.
-
@hydro11 I don't know how I would've combatted the rush defence - my fulltime job isn't coaching the All Blacks. I probably wouldn't have used the inside channel scheme in every game, and wouldn't have kicked so much ball away in the second half. More offloading runs from forwards (see Luatua vs the Lions) would've been nice.
The lack of impact from the bench was very noticeable in this series. S Barrett and A Savea simply aren't big or physical enough to have much impact against a large, quality pack like the Lions. Romano and Luatua would've been better options, with the (excellent) Cane playing 80 mins.
But then again, as Hansen put it, "it's just a game."
-
-
Anyway, I feel like I need to make one more post just to give myself a bit of closure on this. One of the most frustrating AB games I've watched in a long time.
First of all, thanks to the Lions for what has been, overall, a wonderful tour. Lions fans in NZ have been fantastic value and there are countless stories of ABs-Lions fans comradery. It's a really special tour and your players and fans have done you proud. The NH posters on here have been great, sifting through plenty of NZ bias and adding plenty of insight into the Lions squad - I hope you guys all stick around as it's awesome to get another perspective.
Further to that I am very proud of the way NZ hosted the whole thing. Mrs Ioane putting up that Lions fan at her place sums up the way the majority of people have embraced the tour. Great stuff.
Now, to the third and final test. I have to admit sleep hasn't lessoned my frustration much at all. The ABs were actually very good in every department except ball handling. People keep saying the Lions defense was water-tight, and is was very very good, but the ABs did more than enough to open it up. I counted four knock-ons deep in the Lions 22 in the first half alone. That's absolutely killer, and we could have been well ahead at the half.
The Lions to their credit held on for dear life, but that's really all the were doing for large parts of this match, praying for an AB mistake to stop momentum and the rugby Gods obliged nearly every time. I was pulling my hair out watching chance after chance squandered through basic errors. Not good enough and only ourselves to blame.
Then came the Kaino YC when it was still a 3 point game. All of a sudden, after dominating most of the match, it was advantage Lions. We held out well a man down, but it stiffled our attack right when we wanted impact from our subs - terrible timing.
The final 10 minutes then became a desperate scramble for both sides as it often does when the match is in the balance. And that is when a lot of focus comes onto not only the players, but the ref. And he bottled it big time. It was bloody unfortunate for Owens, he knew immediately what he had done - played at a ball that was knocked on from an offiside position - and as per the laws of the game it's an automatic penalty. I'm not sure we'll ever get a clear explanation as to why Poite changed his mind at the last second, I'm not sure he'll be able to explain it, but it left a very sour taste in the mouth and was a pretty big anti-climax to the tour - which is a massive shame.
So a drawn series where the Lions led for a total of three minutes across three test matches. That's an incredible statistic, and some credit has to go to the Lions for hanging in there and taking half the spoils against the odds.
For the ABs I think we finally confirmed that we are not as good as we were in 2015, which you'd expect as a bunch of all-time greats retired that year. But Hansen has done a great job since then. For this series, we touched them up in the first test, nearly pulled off a heroic win with 14 men in the 2nd, and but for handling errors and a baffling call would have won the last. Against the best of the best from England, Ireland, and Wales. Oh and Scotland I guess. Not a complete disaster though anything less then a win will not be tolerated and rightly so. But plently of positives to take with young guys stepping up, we're going to be bloody tough to beat in the next few years with this core group of players.
For the Lions, they've shown that the concept can work well so long as you do it right. They started slow as expected then built into the tour well, and by the end of it they were playing quality footy and proved a more than worthy foe. Long live Lions tours, anyone that says otherwise can fuck right off back to their miserable existence.
Anyway, thanks to all on here for the analysis, banter and emotion. I've pretty much avoided all mainstream media as I know most of it is just dumb clickbait crap that is not worth reading. Not sure what I'd do without this place TBH.
Now... back to Super Rugby... which seems so much less, I don't know, exciting? important? Like travelling 50kmph after doing 120 on the freeway.
-
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@hydro11 All Blacks lost 1 game last year and didnt play England. Folau's form last year was garbage.
But some people were saying we were average last year and winning the World Cup has made us complacent. If we were average last year, then how come we had 11 of the 15 best players in the world?
Some people are worried about England beating us but would seemingly not put one Englishman into the All Blacks. That doesn't make sense to me.
I'm very comfortable with saying that Itoje, Murray, O'Brien, Joseph or Davies, Liam Williams, Stander and Folau would all make a World XV at a minimum. If you disagree with most of those names, then you shouldn't be worried about out form.
I think I rate the individual Lions players higher than most relative to the individual All Blacks players. I still think we are overall the best team though.
