All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2
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@barbarian Yes you definitely would find lots, but I don't think you'll find one as blatantly off to the side of the ruck, with the player attempting to leave the ruck (almost out of the ruck), and with the guy's flying shoulder forward.
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@Nepia Maybe not. And it's why the ref picked it up, as opposed to the others that go un-noticed. I don't think 'leading with the shoulder' is anything unique though. Many clearouts these days are simply flying shoulder charges with the smallest glimpse of an arm tackle.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@barbarian Yes you definitely would find lots, but I don't think you'll find one as blatantly off to the side of the ruck, with the player attempting to leave the ruck (almost out of the ruck), and with the guy's flying shoulder forward.
... aimed at his opponent's head.
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I like all the judiciary decisions.
I also think the on-field reffing was fine as well on the whole. Certainly didn't see him as inconsistent as some have been saying.
Only times I got annoyed;
- first lineout with Itoje standing in the middle while his team mates yelled" get it in". Not a big impact on game. Was kind of funny.
- penalty v Retallick. But I'm ok with refs making mistakes in real time. Itoje 'won it' more than anything, ironic given how good the Lions are at pillars for the box kick.
- the Murray try. This was the worst as their are ample replays and time. But has been missed several times on tour imo. Maybe I just hate this more than refs do?
When I was calling for offside usually the penalty came a phase or 2 later anyway. Maybe that is where the persistent infringing gripe comes in. At the time I was happy to keep taking the 3s.
Vunipola and O'Broen correct both on field and judiciary for me. I agree there was a 'chance' Vunipola could have got worse if a ref was really looking for it. But I'm glad he wasn't.
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Speaking of moral low ground, has the Fern just stooped to a new low only rivalled by GAGR, with someone posting stills to "back up their point". Did I see one with arrows and captions (albeit very poorly written ones) too?
A virtual uppercut to whoever that was
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@ACT-Crusader if you read what I wrote, it was a piss take.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@ACT-Crusader if you read what I wrote, it was a piss take.
And I am hopeful that all the posts whinging about ref calls are also just that....
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@pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@Bones
@reprobate
@taniwharugby
In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
I went through this in the other thread
When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.I agree. Makes one wonder what SOB told the nice men of the judiciary panel?!
Nothing, his mouth was full.
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Hmm, and then the Rugby Onslaught comes with this:
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
Hmm, and then the Rugby Onslaught comes with this:
Well, anyone whose ancestors were smart enough to look elsewhere for food during a famine...
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13 years since we last lost and were held tryless at the same time. Can't help but think though that 14 men or not, we still should have won from 18-9 up. Did they think they had it won at that point and eased off?
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@JC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@pakman said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@Bones
@reprobate
@taniwharugby
In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
I went through this in the other thread
When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end.I agree. Makes one wonder what SOB told the nice men of the judiciary panel?!
Nothing, his mouth was full.
I'm happy SOB was spared. I want no excuses when we smash them in the mouth on Saturday
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
Hmm, and then the Rugby Onslaught comes with this:
It's a gentle push in the shoulder/face with the forearm. Nothing wrong with that.
Ridiculous over the top reporting though. Similarly I've seen quite a few screaming about O'Brien's "thuggery". All pretty lame really.
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@Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@Bones
@reprobate
@taniwharugby
In relation to the SOB forearm, I think you guys are being too nice and have got it wrong.
I went through this in the other thread
When you slow it down, it is pretty obvious that SOB tensed his hand and arm for a hit, he made a half movement to line up the jaw, then the full hit. Completely on purpose. Furthermore, he at no time tried to engage in the tackle. He stayed stooped but held back behind his teammate, let the tackle fall to the ground. He also did not try for the ball which was hidden in Naholo's lap.
Both Vunipolo and this were intentional. Both might have seen red, definitely yellow.
The hit on Naholo cost us a lot in the game, although the boys had a chance to win it and so can only look at themselves in the end. -
Having had the weekend to absorb the loss I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.
Firstly well done the Lions you got there in the end. Plenty of teams would not have gotten over the line but you found a way to win ugly.
For the ABs I have to say even down to 14 I thought we would still win it. Mostly due to what I thought was tactical brilliance from Hanson. Subbing a forward was clearly something they had planned for as it happened almost immediately. It sucks for Kaino but our 7 man pack was more then competitive against the Lions 8 and that is purely down to conditioning. Every one of those blokes put in a shift and they got so close. I suspect if Cruden had passed that balls to the forwards and asked them to hold it for 5 minutes they would have.
But thats not us we play to win not to draw, was still a shitty option.
I can understand people are frustrated with SBW for what happened but I think people need a little perspective. He is not even close to being a serial offender wasn't his last card in 2011 that was 6 years ago. If you balance it up against the good stuff hes done I think hes still the kind of player you want around. So this talk of him never wearing Black again or people booing him needs to be put to bed. Its over no one will regret it more then him.
Vunipola on the other hand should count himself very lucky, in my view that was a straight up targeted shot. He saw it was Barrett and he went hard in on him. It was cheap as well as Barrett was rolling out of the ruck, and there was no other defender so he had no need to even enter the ruck, the ball was available. I think if the contact was any heavier we could have been down a fly half. I would be surprised if he was selected for the 3rd test, he didn't really bend the line and his discipline sucked.
For the SOB incident, it makes me really wonder if the way the Refs are implementing the head high rules needs some adjustment. One thing in common with a lot of the rulings that have been very inconsistent is that its not normally the tackler that is at fault, but more often the tackler assist. We see it here with Sean, with Sonny and even the Cane incident in Ireland. He was coming in as the assist but Henshaws spin caught him. I think as the assister there is a much greater risk of these sorts of accidents. For one you have a player who is in the process of being tackled that will normally be lowering there head as they move toward the ground. This puts it right in the tackle zone for anyone attempting the assist. Then you have huge amounts of force in the collision and the way that acts on the players is not easy to predict, making any assisted tackles a lot messier. The inverse is also true in a one on one tackle with two players colliding both have a good idea of where their bodies should be, to effect a safe tackle at impact.
I really don't know how to deal with that. I would like to see slow motion replays used less as I think reducing the time gives the impression that the players have a choice in their actions and for a lot of cases in the assist I don't think they have much of one. What they committed to 2 steps away is what they have to go through with.
I was happy with Laumape, thought he was good considering the circumstances. Reiko needed to be busier. He can't afford to run hot cold like that and needs to go looking for the ball a bit more rather then wait for it.
One final thing all of the international French Refs are totally fluent in English, please don't give them this excuse as a crutch for a poor performance. They don't need it if they are not communicating with their team properly its not down to language skills.
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@mooshld yeah I liked what Laumape bought to the table, although Will GReenwood who usually makes sense reckons the Lions exposed him, which is true to an extent, but I thought he acquitted himself in the match well, which TBF was the most unusual match to start your AB career off with.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11885188
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@Catogrande thanks, as I said in the other thread, pull up the video and stop it at the right spots. The video you linked shows very clearly the way he tenses up his right hand for a chop/hit action. If he was trying to grab as in making a tackle, he would have an open palm reaching around. Then he does a half movement as a sighter, then a full hit to the jaw. Then he moves backward away from the tackle area rapidly, since all his forward momentum went into Naholo's jaw, and since he at no time tried to lower his body weight to engage the tackle.
You say it is a gentle forearm to the jaw, I say it is a hard cold cock, on purpose. Look at the result.
I disagree with mooshid. None of SOB's actions look like he is trying to make a tackle. You need to freeze frame it to see his actions clearly. He has a history of hitting player's heads, so giving him the benefit of the doubt and only looking at it real speed from the wrong side is insufficient. We are Kiwis, we don't BS nor whinge. Tell it like it is.
I don't want to keep rehashing this, it's over, and he got off (miraculously). Time to move on and beat them on the field this weekend.
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@Wairau said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #2:
@Catogrande thanks, as I said in the other thread, pull up the video and stop it at the right spots. The video you linked shows very clearly the way he tenses up his right hand for a chop/hit action. If he was trying to grab as in making a tackle, he would have an open palm reaching around. Then he does a half movement as a sighter, then a full hit to the jaw. Then he moves backward away from the tackle area rapidly, since all his forward momentum went into Naholo's jaw, and since he at no time tried to lower his body weight to engage the tackle.
You say it is a gentle forearm to the jaw, I say it is a hard cold cock, on purpose. Look at the result.
I disagree with mooshid. None of SOB's actions look like he is trying to make a tackle. You need to freeze frame it to see his actions clearly. He has a history of hitting player's heads, so giving him the benefit of the doubt and only looking at it real speed from the wrong side is insufficient. We are Kiwis, we don't BS nor whinge. Tell it like it is.
I don't want to keep rehashing this, it's over, and he got off (miraculously). Time to move on and beat them on the field this weekend.
I'd love to see the reasoning of the dismissal and the defence put forward. Not because I want to pick them apart but because I am astounded how that incident was deemed not a RC under the directives.
SBWs was deemed a RC presumably because the ref either decided there was intent or a complete lack of care. The judiciary decided reckless which upholds the RC. How on earth was SOBs not reckless?
I have said I think it was an accident, but I also see SBWs as one as well. It was an avoidable accident though and both players did not need to make the actions they did.
I guess we'll never know but it is certainly perplexing. Almost as perplexing as the ref team looking at it and seeing a hard forearm to the jaw and deciding it wasn't even worth an action.
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