B&I Lions 2017
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated I think the reason they haven't done that is a hangover from the 2001 tour, where Henry clearly had his mind made up about the Test team before the squad even met. That drove a rift between the squad with many of the midweek guys feeling they were just walking tackle bags and no matter how well they played they stood no chance of making the weekend team. Healey and Dawson were very vocal about it, and it led to an unhappy touring party.
I remember reading a couple of interviews contrasting that with the other extreme: SCW's chopping and changing in 2005 where no-one knew where they stood and no combinations where given time to form.
It's a tricky line to tread and one of the reasons both the 1997 and 2009 tours are remembered so fondly by the players is how well McGeechen trod it and how happy the touring parties were as a result.
My impression was that the 2013 squad wasn't quite so harmonious, although the Test series victory largely paper over that fact.
I dunno how set in stone that team was. Living in the UK I did enjoy reading up on the tour on all the newspapers lying around the tubes. Most wouldn't have picked Daffyd James over Ben Cohen on the wing for example.
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Garland has said something about development of test team in his interviews yesterday. IIRC, he said that the Maori game would be pretty much the first test team.
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@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Disgusted-of-TW said in B&I Lions 2017:
Nice video clip of Thomas Waldrom reacting to Jack Nowell's selection, by managing to keep eating through the uproar. Omnomnomnom.
I thought that was very touching and appropriate, he turned his head from the plate to see who Jack Nowell was (oh yeah, the back with funny haircut, I scored more tries than him) and then politely clapped his knife and fork together, took a quick glance up to see if the camera was still on him, and then resumes eating.
To be fair Thomas the Tank has scored more tries than any winger this season barring Wade. Oh and more than any in the premiership last season bar none.
All for a total yardage of about 17 though.
I know - that's why I said it. I do watch the Premiership you know, even if BT Sport think we're all living in the sea somewhere south of Newry.
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@infidel The full squad won't even be in NZ for the opening (and easiest) game due to club final commitments. Therefore I would think Gatland would have to use the first 3 games to give everybody an opportunity to play. The Crusaders game should be a tough assignment, particularly up front, as their forward pack is full of ABs. That game might be a good marker for both NZ and the Lions.
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@SimonAdd_2 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated I think the reason they haven't done that is a hangover from the 2001 tour, where Henry clearly had his mind made up about the Test team before the squad even met. That drove a rift between the squad with many of the midweek guys feeling they were just walking tackle bags and no matter how well they played they stood no chance of making the weekend team. Healey and Dawson were very vocal about it, and it led to an unhappy touring party.
Times have changed many of the attitudes of the players on that tour were rooted still in the amateur game, providing things are handled professionally today's player is going to accept their role with a lot more grace and professionalism.
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@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Disgusted-of-TW said in B&I Lions 2017:
Nice video clip of Thomas Waldrom reacting to Jack Nowell's selection, by managing to keep eating through the uproar. Omnomnomnom.
I thought that was very touching and appropriate, he turned his head from the plate to see who Jack Nowell was (oh yeah, the back with funny haircut, I scored more tries than him) and then politely clapped his knife and fork together, took a quick glance up to see if the camera was still on him, and then resumes eating.
To be fair Thomas the Tank has scored more tries than any winger this season barring Wade. Oh and more than any in the premiership last season bar none.
All for a total yardage of about 17 though.
efficiency stats off the chart
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@Pot-Hale I probably should have said "to be fair to Nowell..."
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@Bovidae said in B&I Lions 2017:
@infidel The full squad won't even be in NZ for the opening (and easiest) game due to club final commitments. Therefore I would think Gatland would have to use the first 3 games to give everybody an opportunity to play.
Are you sure about that? I thought Gatland said over a year ago that there was only one plane leaving and the full squad would be on that. I think they depart the day after PRO12 final - on 28th May from London.
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Pretty sure they are all leaving at the same time.
Just that players playing in finals the previous weekend won't be involved in the opening game.
Or something like that...
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@Pot-Hale I thought I read something to that effect a while back, but I was obviously wrong then, as @Margin_Walker says.
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If they're all arriving together, I'd be inclined to field a shadow test team in all of the Saturday games and a shadow dirt trackers team in the mid-week games - with a little bit of shuffling and fine-tuning between the two.
A clear message the door isn't shut to anyone forcing their way in or playing their way out, but the main target is to win three tests.
There's some management challenges in keeping the dirties happy and motivated - but, I don't really see any point in trying to pretend everyone is starting on a level playing field.
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It's going to be mix an match for the first 2-3 matches whilst everyone gets to know each other and combos are tried out.
Don't know if Gatland is going to try national combos in some games in the backline - he has three available to him.
I think we need to start an injury bingo before the tests.
Nominate your players who you think won't make it to the starting line for the first test.
I'm going to go with Murray, Sexton, Stander, O'Brien, North, Halfpenny, Watson, Sinckler
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
It's going to be mix an match for the first 2-3 matches whilst everyone gets to know each other and combos are tried out.
Don't know if Gatland is going to try national combos in some games in the backline - he has three available to him.
I think we need to start an injury bingo before the tests.
Nominate your players who you think won't make it to the starting line for the first test.
I'm going to go with Murray, Sexton, Stander, O'Brien, North, Halfpenny, Watson, Sinckler
No North?
This post is wonderful news for Scots fans though
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@MN5 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
It's going to be mix an match for the first 2-3 matches whilst everyone gets to know each other and combos are tried out.
Don't know if Gatland is going to try national combos in some games in the backline - he has three available to him.
I think we need to start an injury bingo before the tests.
Nominate your players who you think won't make it to the starting line for the first test.
I'm going to go with Murray, Sexton, Stander, O'Brien, North, Halfpenny, Watson, Sinckler
No North?
This post is wonderful news for Scots fans though
North is going to put his head where it shouldn't go in some match and that will be that.
Ditto Sexton.
Murray is a 50/50 to go on tour at the moment. He's not playing in the Euro semifinal tomorrow, as his recovery had a setback last week. Garland says he has to play before they leave on 29th or he's dropped. If Laidlaw manages to recover in time from his injury, that could be his opportunity, although knowing Gatland, he'll probably pick Caolin Blade if that happens.
O'Brien is out with a hamstring from semifinal tomorrow - he's had problems with those and again he may be under the cosh to recover in time. Hamish Watson's eyes may light up at the prospect, although VdF may be seen as a more likely replacement.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MN5 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
It's going to be mix an match for the first 2-3 matches whilst everyone gets to know each other and combos are tried out.
Don't know if Gatland is going to try national combos in some games in the backline - he has three available to him.
I think we need to start an injury bingo before the tests.
Nominate your players who you think won't make it to the starting line for the first test.
I'm going to go with Murray, Sexton, Stander, O'Brien, North, Halfpenny, Watson, Sinckler
No North?
This post is wonderful news for Scots fans though
...Murray is a 50/50 to go on tour at the moment. He's not playing in the Euro semifinal tomorrow, as his recovery had a setback last week. Garland says he has to play before they leave on 29th or he's dropped...
And yet, Warburton is out for the rest of the domestic season but still goes. I realise some injuries are more problematical than others but that is not a good look.
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Warburton is "welsh"
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Shots fired, shots fired!
Makes some valid points, but dont tend to agree with the general tone, but happily accept the under dog status.
http://www.allblacks.com/News/30676/lions-will-bludgeon-to-blunt-the-rapier-uk-view
Lions will bludgeon to blunt the rapier - UK view
Getty Images
23 APR 2017 GETTY IMAGESNew Zealand won't be able to compete with the depth in the British & Irish Lions squad for the DHL New Zealand Lions series.
That's the view of Welsh rugby writer Andy Howell.He wrote on walesonline.co.uk that while New Zealand may have the best production line in world rugby, they won't be able to compete with the Lions.
"The decision by the Lions to allow [Warren] Gatland to take 41 players to the land of the long white cloud was a masterstroke," he said.
"That meant it was almost impossible for quality players not to make the squad."
Howell said the only position that concerned him was hooker where Ireland's Rory Best had been a let down when touring Australia four years ago while Welshman Ken Owens was on the most demanding assignment of his career and England's reserve hooker Jamie George had to show he was as effective starting as he was coming off the bench.
The biggest challenge for Gatland would be choosing his style of play.
He didn't think the Lions would look to move the ball because that choice would be playing into the hands of the All Blacks and their superior skills.
"Attempting to take on Steve Hansen's men at their favoured game would be asking for trouble with a capital T because the Lions would be unlikely to beat them at an off-the-cuff running game.
"Gatland's men will have to be smart, pragmatic and use the bludgeon to blunt the rapier," he said.
With this in mind first five-eighths Johnny Sexton would be crucial to the cause and if he succumbed to injury Owen Farrell was capable of stepping in.
"While New Zealand have the better skills, the Lions possess the power to cause any team problems.
"With Maro Itoje, Stander, Moriarty, Sean O'Brien, the Vunipola brothers, Tadhg Furlong, Jack McGrath, George Kruis, Alun Wyn Jones et al, the Lions have an array of riches to choose from.
"Crucially, it won't be just in their starting team but on the bench and that's where the series could be won and lost.
"New Zealand's lack of depth in the boilerhouse was highlighted when their world record winning streak came to an end against Ireland in Chicago last November," he said.
New Zealand had to do without Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick in that Test and while the Lions could cover injuries to their locks he wasn't sure New Zealand could.
He also believed the Lions had the men to handle the breakdown and nullify Kieran Read and Ardie Savea while also getting the better of Jerome Kaino, Sam Cane and Matt Todd.
"Out-muscle the All Blacks in the front five and do a number on them at the breakdown and the Lions will be in business," he said.
Howell also believed the Lions would win in the experience stakes and brought up the departed All Blacks from the 2015 World Cup.
"New Zealand will be under more pressure than they have been, barring the two Tests with Ireland last autumn, at any time since they stood down.
"It will be interesting to see how the likes of Cane, [Beauden] Barrett, Ryan Crotty, Sonny Bill Williams and Anton Lienert-Brown react when the pressure is really on," he said.
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@taniwharugby said in B&I Lions 2017:
Shots fired, shots fired!
Makes some valid points, but dont tend to agree with the general tone, but happily accept the under dog status.
http://www.allblacks.com/News/30676/lions-will-bludgeon-to-blunt-the-rapier-uk-view
Lions will bludgeon to blunt the rapier - UK view
Getty Images
23 APR 2017 GETTY IMAGESNew Zealand won't be able to compete with the depth in the British & Irish Lions squad for the DHL New Zealand Lions series.
That's the view of Welsh rugby writer Andy Howell.He wrote on walesonline.co.uk that while New Zealand may have the best production line in world rugby, they won't be able to compete with the Lions.
"The decision by the Lions to allow [Warren] Gatland to take 41 players to the land of the long white cloud was a masterstroke," he said.
"That meant it was almost impossible for quality players not to make the squad."
Howell said the only position that concerned him was hooker where Ireland's Rory Best had been a let down when touring Australia four years ago while Welshman Ken Owens was on the most demanding assignment of his career and England's reserve hooker Jamie George had to show he was as effective starting as he was coming off the bench.
The biggest challenge for Gatland would be choosing his style of play.
He didn't think the Lions would look to move the ball because that choice would be playing into the hands of the All Blacks and their superior skills.
"Attempting to take on Steve Hansen's men at their favoured game would be asking for trouble with a capital T because the Lions would be unlikely to beat them at an off-the-cuff running game.
"Gatland's men will have to be smart, pragmatic and use the bludgeon to blunt the rapier," he said.
With this in mind first five-eighths Johnny Sexton would be crucial to the cause and if he succumbed to injury Owen Farrell was capable of stepping in.
"While New Zealand have the better skills, the Lions possess the power to cause any team problems.
"With Maro Itoje, Stander, Moriarty, Sean O'Brien, the Vunipola brothers, Tadhg Furlong, Jack McGrath, George Kruis, Alun Wyn Jones et al, the Lions have an array of riches to choose from.
"Crucially, it won't be just in their starting team but on the bench and that's where the series could be won and lost.
"New Zealand's lack of depth in the boilerhouse was highlighted when their world record winning streak came to an end against Ireland in Chicago last November," he said.
New Zealand had to do without Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retallick in that Test and while the Lions could cover injuries to their locks he wasn't sure New Zealand could.
He also believed the Lions had the men to handle the breakdown and nullify Kieran Read and Ardie Savea while also getting the better of Jerome Kaino, Sam Cane and Matt Todd.
"Out-muscle the All Blacks in the front five and do a number on them at the breakdown and the Lions will be in business," he said.
Howell also believed the Lions would win in the experience stakes and brought up the departed All Blacks from the 2015 World Cup.
"New Zealand will be under more pressure than they have been, barring the two Tests with Ireland last autumn, at any time since they stood down.
"It will be interesting to see how the likes of Cane, [Beauden] Barrett, Ryan Crotty, Sonny Bill Williams and Anton Lienert-Brown react when the pressure is really on," he said.
That article reminds me of an article that was written just before the last Lions tour by Ackford ,
He said something along the lines of, the ABs are more skillful . but the Lions will be more sophisticated ( whatever that means )
I remembered it because I found it amusing
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@kiwiinmelb well there is a team made up of 3 of the top 5 ranked teams in the world and Wales, surely they should smash us!
Champion team vs team of Champions and all
The class moment Jack Nowell discovered he'd been named in the Lions squad
