Aaron Cruden
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@kiwiinmelb I think you are forgetting NIck Evans as well. Who was certainly quality and was raved about up north after this move up there.
Gopperth, Nacewa have also down well up there. And somebody else said on this forum that Bleyendaal is currently one of the best going around. I haven't mentioned Lucky Luke yet either.
So, in a nutshell, I'd say we've produced a heap of top quality 10's ... we've just struggled to keep them in New Zealand.
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@MajorRage said in Aaron Cruden:
@Duluth I think you are forgetting NIck Evans as well. Who was certainly quality and was raved about up north after this move up there.
Gopperth, Nacewa have also down well up there. And somebody else said on this forum that Bleyendaal is currently one of the best going around. I haven't mentioned Lucky Luke yet either.
So, in a nutshell, I'd say we've produced a heap of top quality 10's ... we've just struggled to keep them in New Zealand.
I don't think Duluth is saying we haven't produced quality. I certainly think we have. He was answering @kiwiinmelb post which seemed to imply that the success the ABs have had should've correlated with more world class 1st 5s
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@ACT-Crusader your right .. my comment should be to kiwi in melb ... will update accordingly. thanks
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Yeah I didnt mean our 10s have been crap ,far from it , had plenty of good ones ,
But for a team that has been so dominant , i dont remember many occasions if any in my lifetime , like the Carter era where we had the undoubted best in the world in that position playing in black
yet its such an important position , many would describe it as the most important ,
like ACT said , 15 man game ,
more often than not, strong all over the park is what counts most anyway obviously
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There was a book on AB 10s a few years ago where they actually mentioned how for a long time NZ didn't really have great 10s, like 10 wasn't a position players wanted to play and until the 80s it was actually a revolving door position. Whereas now I think it's highly valued as Kiwiinmelb has said and we've been extremely lucky in recent years (since 2011) where we've had Carter, when he was injured Cruden (who was often in better form) and then to Barrett's spectacular year in 2016.
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@Steven-Harris said in Aaron Cruden:
well the nearly man played 47 x tests for his country,47 more than Chris Rattue ever played
Let's shut the forum down then, champ, because other than Shayne Philpott popping up on here again, I think we'll be battling to find any of our posters having turned out for the ABs, yet we plonk our opinions on here.
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I recking the thing that differentiates a 10 when comparisons are made to to other positions is that he is far more visible. You can have a great hooker, lock or 8 but their core works even if stand out, is all part of the whole pack effort. Take Coles as a for instance. He's a great hooker, does his core work very well but why are people raving about him? It's mostly down to his non-core work, where he pops up in open play and pulls of something outrageous. For a 10, very thing is his core work, though (Mehrts might suggest tackling was not). 10s get judged at a different level I thin because they are always in the spotlight.
Funny though, what someone else just said that previously NZ didn't seem to produce many outstanding 10s. Prior to Fox I can't remember many names let alone stand outs. Bob Burgess was pretty good but short lived. Fucked if I can think of another though. However since Fox, you've had Bachop (OK not stand out but pretty good), Mehrts, Spencer, Carter, Evans, Cruden, Sopoaga, Barrett. There's not many of those that would be turned down by any other country. That's 30 years of conveyor belt right there.
Stop bloody moaning.
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@Bones said in Aaron Cruden:
47 doesn't actually seem like a lot in this day and age. Did he debut in 2010?
47 isn't so bad when your career coincides with the greatest 10 to play the game.
@Catogrande What you don't know of Mark Nicholls, Earle Kirton, Nicky Allen and some bloke called Wayne Smith - and you call yourself a rugby fan!
Until Smith came along I think barely a NZ 10 ever made it to 10 tests - Wales had all the good 10s and we had everyone else.
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@Nepia Ah now that you mention Nicky Allen, him I do remember. Not bad at all but as a great of the game? That would be why his name keeps cropping up on here all the time...
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Mac Herewini would likely have been a star in this day and age.
Part of the reason only 'modern' 10s have carved a high status is that the style of AB play has changed to a far less conservative way.
No mention of Nick Evans in the posts above either. He seemed to be a stand out in the UK if not so much during his AB career.
I think Frano Botica could also be added to the outstanding 10s list. -
@Catogrande I wasn't actually mentioning those guys as greats, just illustrating how 10 hasn't really been a boom position for us pre the pro era as those were the few names I could think of. I was just being a bit cheeky as I thought you weren't a Kiwi.
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I wouldn't have Cruden anywhere near the top, In a black jersey he's had some very good games, but he struggled to nail down the jersey for any length of time - partly because Carter was around, but also because he wasn't seen as the clear 2nd. Barrett was picked ahead of him last year (even when fit), Slade edged him out in 2010/11. Sopoaga has maybe only played when Cruden was crocked (?).
Contrast Cruden & his hold over the black 10 shirt with, say Sam Cane & the black 7 (both similar in that behind a great). The second he is fit he is in. Hell even Fekitoa & the centres or Luke Romano & the reserve lock spot behind 2 greats.
Merts was undisputed top AB 10 for years at a time - with very good guys chasing him. Ditto Carter & Fox. Re the domestic dominance, Carlos was imperious domestically, big whoop, Stephen Bachop was outstanding domestically, so was Simon Mannix.
A lot of the backups of yesteryear missed out due to lack of tests played & no substitutes, as Crucial notes, Botica was outstanding but rode pine without the 20 minute cameos Barrett had to use to audition. Frano would have been outstanding off the bench in the modern era & may well have got past Fox if used that way.
If Cruden had a clear injury free run I think he might have been seen as top 3 or 4 of the last 20 years, but after having missed out there's no way to judge him based on "if only". if only Nick Evans hadn't gone overseas he'd have been a great, if only Toeava & Kahui hadn't got injured over & over again they would have been the ABs finest ever centre pairing while Ryan & Robinson would have formed the best locking combo we'd ever had etc.
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@Smudge said in Aaron Cruden:
@Steven-Harris said in Aaron Cruden:
well the nearly man played 47 x tests for his country,47 more than Chris Rattue ever played
Let's shut the forum down then, champ, because other than Shayne Philpott popping up on here again, I think we'll be battling to find any of our posters having turned out for the ABs, yet we plonk our opinions on here.
What's with the sarcasm? Rattue has copped plenty of shit on the Fern, why suddenly call out one poster?
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@Crazy-Horse said in Aaron Cruden:
What's with the sarcasm? Rattue has copped plenty of shit on the Fern, why suddenly call out one poster?
Its more the idea that Rattraes line of thinking was invalidated because Cruden had played for the ABs. IE the whole arguement was "Cruden played for the ABs therefore should not have his legacy in any way questioned!"
Which does kinda invalidate the Fern...
Personally Steves punctuation meant I never actually read his comment as I started bleeding out my ears
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@gollum said in Aaron Cruden:
@Crazy-Horse said in Aaron Cruden:
What's with the sarcasm? Rattue has copped plenty of shit on the Fern, why suddenly call out one poster?
Its more the idea that Rattraes line of thinking was invalidated because Cruden had played for the ABs. IE the whole arguement was "Cruden played for the ABs therefore should not have his legacy in any way questioned!"
Which does kinda invalidate the Fern...
Personally Steves punctuation meant I never actually read his comment as I started bleeding out my ears
"It's"
"Rattrae's"
"i.e." - to be fair, arguable
"argument"
"Steve's" -
@gollum said in Aaron Cruden:
Merts was undisputed top AB 10 for years at a time - with very good guys chasing him.
Spencer was the undisputed AB 10 in 1997 and 2003. Brown was favoured over him in 2001 - although it was close. So the most years-at-a-time you can string together is 1998-2000 probably our darkest period and likely why Smith, Mitchell then Henry went looking for other options (Spencer was also injured throughout that 98-00 period and Brown was a test rookie).
Undisputed is a hard term to throw out there given he straight up lost his spot to someone 2, maybe 3 separate times.
He had the same ownership on his jersey as someone like Byron Kelleher - was in favour for chunks of his lengthy career, but regularly was relegated to the bench after finding himself out of favour on form or stylistic reasons.
