All Blacks 2025
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
Lightening really did strike twice.
Unless they had something similar to Michael Jackson or a Jenny Craig diet for tight forwards, I believe you mean Lightning?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
Lightening really did strike twice.
Unless they had something similar to Michael Jackson or a Jenny Craig diet for tight forwards, I believe you mean Lightning?
No. Definitely not a typo. At all.
Retallick in particular is pretty pasty.
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@chucknz said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean so who in NZ currently is better?
In terms of lineout off their own ball I would say Darry and Lord are easily the best in NZ.
Then you've probably got a group of Vaa'i, Tuipulotu, Holland, Mcwhannell, and Dunshea.
Then you've got Barrett, Shalfoon, Ah Kuoi, Delany and a bunch of others.
Scott Barrett is a good support lineout off own ball. Good lifter. He's good on a defensive lineout. I'd say he's one of the best scrummagers and cleaners around at lock. He's a real scrapper and knows how to win games but he can lose his discipline when things aren't going his teams way.
One of the best maulers around too on attack and defence.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
One of the best maulers around too on attack and defence.
and a workrate that is off the charts. Man he gets involved a lot - not always good outcomes, but his motor is massive
Yeah the workrate stats are interesting this year.
Locks Contact Involvements Per 80 Minutes ( Carries + Rucks + Tackles )
64.84 Zach Gallagher
58.89 Will Stodart
56.07 Isaia Walker-Leawere
54.02 Jamie Hannah
53.5 Cameron Suafoa
53.09 Fabian Holland
52.83 Caleb Delany
50.23 Josh Lord
49.83 Naitoa Ah Kuoi
49.45 Josh Beehre
48.99 Scott Barrett
47.3 Tupou Vaa'i
46.86 Patrick Tuipulotu
46.47 Antonio Shalfoon
43.36 Allan Craig
40.74 Mitchell DunsheaBased off theanalyst stats.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
On speed of loosies, McCaw wasn't exactly a speed merchant either. More important than speed, particularly for a loosie playing the tighter role, is a big engine and great game awareness which allows them to get themselves in the right position more often than not.
True, up to a point.
Like someone said with height at the lineout - it's not an issue until it's a big issue. If you aren't fast, you start needing other players who are around you - and then that changes the balance of the trio. And if you aren't fast enough and you go up against players who are faster, that can be a real problem. Also, early McCaw was quick!
We're looking at stats when they can be misleading - part of the issue with early Hooper and with Adam Thomson were they got to lots of places but didn't have a big impact when they did. Razor loves multi-position players, which means you dno't get specialists (by definition) ... and I think that is a real problem at Test level. EB is great in many ways, but he is not fast - seems to struggle to run at times - and I don't think is quick enough to be a 7 in Tests. Obviously Razor and Ryan disagree with me though.
Ethan's not really fast enough to be an elite 7. He can obviously play there - he's spent quite a lot of this Super season there - but it's not his best position.
He's a smallish 6. If they want a big 6 they'll pick Finau or Parker - maybe both.
But, Ethan is a probably slightly bigger version of Liam Messam, who went alright.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
On speed of loosies, McCaw wasn't exactly a speed merchant either. More important than speed, particularly for a loosie playing the tighter role, is a big engine and great game awareness which allows them to get themselves in the right position more often than not.
True, up to a point.
Like someone said with height at the lineout - it's not an issue until it's a big issue. If you aren't fast, you start needing other players who are around you - and then that changes the balance of the trio. And if you aren't fast enough and you go up against players who are faster, that can be a real problem. Also, early McCaw was quick!
We're looking at stats when they can be misleading - part of the issue with early Hooper and with Adam Thomson were they got to lots of places but didn't have a big impact when they did. Razor loves multi-position players, which means you dno't get specialists (by definition) ... and I think that is a real problem at Test level. EB is great in many ways, but he is not fast - seems to struggle to run at times - and I don't think is quick enough to be a 7 in Tests. Obviously Razor and Ryan disagree with me though.
Ethan's not really fast enough to be an elite 7. He can obviously play there - he's spent quite a lot of this Super season there - but it's not his best position.
He's a smallish 6. If they want a big 6 they'll pick Finau or Parker - maybe both.
But, Ethan is a probably slightly bigger version of Liam Messam, who went alright.
Messam had the pace of a back and was a lot harder hitter in defence.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
One of the best maulers around too on attack and defence.
and a workrate that is off the charts. Man he gets involved a lot - not always good outcomes, but his motor is massive
Yeah the workrate stats are interesting this year.
Locks Contact Involvements Per 80 Minutes ( Carries + Rucks + Tackles )
64.84 Zach Gallagher
58.89 Will Stodart
56.07 Isaia Walker-Leawere
54.02 Jamie Hannah
53.5 Cameron Suafoa
53.09 Fabian Holland
52.83 Caleb Delany
50.23 Josh Lord
49.83 Naitoa Ah Kuoi
49.45 Josh Beehre
48.99 Scott Barrett
47.3 Tupou Vaa'i
46.86 Patrick Tuipulotu
46.47 Antonio Shalfoon
43.36 Allan Craig
40.74 Mitchell DunsheaBased off theanalyst stats.
Of those guys, Holland would be the first actually playing 80 minutes maybe?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
One of the best maulers around too on attack and defence.
and a workrate that is off the charts. Man he gets involved a lot - not always good outcomes, but his motor is massive
Yeah the workrate stats are interesting this year.
Locks Contact Involvements Per 80 Minutes ( Carries + Rucks + Tackles )
64.84 Zach Gallagher
58.89 Will Stodart
56.07 Isaia Walker-Leawere
54.02 Jamie Hannah
53.5 Cameron Suafoa
53.09 Fabian Holland
52.83 Caleb Delany
50.23 Josh Lord
49.83 Naitoa Ah Kuoi
49.45 Josh Beehre
48.99 Scott Barrett
47.3 Tupou Vaa'i
46.86 Patrick Tuipulotu
46.47 Antonio Shalfoon
43.36 Allan Craig
40.74 Mitchell DunsheaBased off theanalyst stats.
Of those guys, Holland would be the first actually playing 80 minutes maybe?
Yeah Holland,Barrett,Vai,Tuipulotu are the only ones playing 80 min consistently.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
One of the best maulers around too on attack and defence.
and a workrate that is off the charts. Man he gets involved a lot - not always good outcomes, but his motor is massive
Yeah the workrate stats are interesting this year.
Locks Contact Involvements Per 80 Minutes ( Carries + Rucks + Tackles )
64.84 Zach Gallagher
58.89 Will Stodart
56.07 Isaia Walker-Leawere
54.02 Jamie Hannah
53.5 Cameron Suafoa
53.09 Fabian Holland
52.83 Caleb Delany
50.23 Josh Lord
49.83 Naitoa Ah Kuoi
49.45 Josh Beehre
48.99 Scott Barrett
47.3 Tupou Vaa'i
46.86 Patrick Tuipulotu
46.47 Antonio Shalfoon
43.36 Allan Craig
40.74 Mitchell DunsheaBased off theanalyst stats.
Of those guys, Holland would be the first actually playing 80 minutes maybe?
Yeah Holland,Barrett,Vai,Tuipulotu are the only ones playing 80 min consistently.
That matches what I've been seeing, the Dutchman has some motor, and the other 3 would all be targeting the international season. Pick him I reckon.
If he can put a few more kg on and keep the workrate he has a heap of potential. It's only really his emergence along with Vaai arguably outplaying Barrett last year which makes Barretts spot look anything less than rock solid. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
One of the best maulers around too on attack and defence.
and a workrate that is off the charts. Man he gets involved a lot - not always good outcomes, but his motor is massive
Yeah the workrate stats are interesting this year.
Locks Contact Involvements Per 80 Minutes ( Carries + Rucks + Tackles )
64.84 Zach Gallagher
58.89 Will Stodart
56.07 Isaia Walker-Leawere
54.02 Jamie Hannah
53.5 Cameron Suafoa
53.09 Fabian Holland
52.83 Caleb Delany
50.23 Josh Lord
49.83 Naitoa Ah Kuoi
49.45 Josh Beehre
48.99 Scott Barrett
47.3 Tupou Vaa'i
46.86 Patrick Tuipulotu
46.47 Antonio Shalfoon
43.36 Allan Craig
40.74 Mitchell DunsheaBased off theanalyst stats.
Of those guys, Holland would be the first actually playing 80 minutes maybe?
Yeah Holland,Barrett,Vai,Tuipulotu are the only ones playing 80 min consistently.
That matches what I've been seeing, the Dutchman has some motor, and the other 3 would all be targeting the international season. Pick him I reckon.
If he can put a few more kg on and keep the workrate he has a heap of potential. It's only really his emergence along with Vaai arguably outplaying Barrett last year which makes Barretts spot look anything less than rock solid.He's already 120kg isn't he? I think Holland should be there. Unfortunately it looks like Lord and Darry are going the way of Blackadder with their injuries.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
One of the best maulers around too on attack and defence.
and a workrate that is off the charts. Man he gets involved a lot - not always good outcomes, but his motor is massive
Yeah the workrate stats are interesting this year.
Locks Contact Involvements Per 80 Minutes ( Carries + Rucks + Tackles )
64.84 Zach Gallagher
58.89 Will Stodart
56.07 Isaia Walker-Leawere
54.02 Jamie Hannah
53.5 Cameron Suafoa
53.09 Fabian Holland
52.83 Caleb Delany
50.23 Josh Lord
49.83 Naitoa Ah Kuoi
49.45 Josh Beehre
48.99 Scott Barrett
47.3 Tupou Vaa'i
46.86 Patrick Tuipulotu
46.47 Antonio Shalfoon
43.36 Allan Craig
40.74 Mitchell DunsheaBased off theanalyst stats.
Of those guys, Holland would be the first actually playing 80 minutes maybe?
Yeah Holland,Barrett,Vai,Tuipulotu are the only ones playing 80 min consistently.
That matches what I've been seeing, the Dutchman has some motor, and the other 3 would all be targeting the international season. Pick him I reckon.
If he can put a few more kg on and keep the workrate he has a heap of potential. It's only really his emergence along with Vaai arguably outplaying Barrett last year which makes Barretts spot look anything less than rock solid.He's already 120kg isn't he? I think Holland should be there. Unfortunately it looks like Lord and Darry are going the way of Blackadder with their injuries.
Dunno, he just still looks a little on the lean side to me, and feel a few more kg would help in the collision areas at the top level. As good as Barrett is in all the ways you point out, if we look at our current lineout of him vaai savea sititi vs a retallick whitelock read kaino one, we are not close to the same class.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
One of the best maulers around too on attack and defence.
and a workrate that is off the charts. Man he gets involved a lot - not always good outcomes, but his motor is massive
Yeah the workrate stats are interesting this year.
Locks Contact Involvements Per 80 Minutes ( Carries + Rucks + Tackles )
64.84 Zach Gallagher
58.89 Will Stodart
56.07 Isaia Walker-Leawere
54.02 Jamie Hannah
53.5 Cameron Suafoa
53.09 Fabian Holland
52.83 Caleb Delany
50.23 Josh Lord
49.83 Naitoa Ah Kuoi
49.45 Josh Beehre
48.99 Scott Barrett
47.3 Tupou Vaa'i
46.86 Patrick Tuipulotu
46.47 Antonio Shalfoon
43.36 Allan Craig
40.74 Mitchell DunsheaBased off theanalyst stats.
Of those guys, Holland would be the first actually playing 80 minutes maybe?
Yeah Holland,Barrett,Vai,Tuipulotu are the only ones playing 80 min consistently.
That matches what I've been seeing, the Dutchman has some motor, and the other 3 would all be targeting the international season. Pick him I reckon.
If he can put a few more kg on and keep the workrate he has a heap of potential. It's only really his emergence along with Vaai arguably outplaying Barrett last year which makes Barretts spot look anything less than rock solid.He's already 120kg isn't he? I think Holland should be there. Unfortunately it looks like Lord and Darry are going the way of Blackadder with their injuries.
Dunno, he just still looks a little on the lean side to me, and feel a few more kg would help in the collision areas at the top level. As good as Barrett is in all the ways you point out, if we look at our current lineout of him vaai savea sititi vs a retallick whitelock read kaino one, we are not close to the same class.
Holland is listed at 124kg. Which would make him the heaviest out of the AB locking options. Don't know if you want him going too much heavier. Potentially losing his mobility.
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@chucknz said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate they are arguably the greatest collection of locks and loosies in the history of the game
Sure, but I'm just talking about the lineout skills.
