All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch
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@Crucial said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@Damo said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@Crucial said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@booboo said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@No-Quarter said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
Weird call, I know you can't dummy throw but early decoy jumpers I see all the time.
I think (think!) you can jump early but not lift early. They were bound as he jumped.
The above should not be taken as gospel.
19.10 (f)
Basically you can't jump or lift before the ball leaves the hookers hands. It is the equivalent of 'foot up' in a scrum.
While Gardner was correct and obviously wanted to clean the line out contest up for the game, it would have been better to have a word at the next break and warn them of going to penalties (same with the 'early movement call' on Coles). Owens or Joubert would have done that rather than disrupt the flow of the game which took an age to find any rhythm.
Get the game flowing first and your job as ref becomes easier IMO because players are operating more smoothly and making less errors.
I disagree. It wasn't a technical or marginal breach of the law. The Boks very deliberately lifted their man 2-3 seconds early to prompt the ABs to jump, and then they threw over the top to the unmarked jumper behind. Their actions are exactly what the law is designed to prevent and so they were pinged.
I thought Gardiner was very good.
I have no problem with the intent or technicality of the call, it was perfectly correct. I do feel however that AG is still learning the top end game management skills that make the difference to the game as a 'product'. I really do think a ref like Owens would have noted the infringement and had a word of warning with the Boks. Same with the minor scrum infractions. Players were getting frustrated and the game took forever to get any flow and rhythm to it.
This is nit picking but when Julian scored and the TMO was needed (correctly), AG just wandered slowly over to the AR as if nothing had happened. This kind of thing takes all the sting out of crowd celebrations, turning an exciting moment into a slow examination and anti-climax. He is miked up, he could have got onto things with urgency instead of deadpanning the situation.Angus is good. A refreshing addition to the competent referees out there in the big league.
Calls it as he sees it and stays staunch in his convictions. Better to leave him be and get the players and captains to adjust to him, rather than the other way round -
@Crucial said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@Damo said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@Crucial said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@booboo said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@No-Quarter said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
Weird call, I know you can't dummy throw but early decoy jumpers I see all the time.
I think (think!) you can jump early but not lift early. They were bound as he jumped.
The above should not be taken as gospel.
19.10 (f)
Basically you can't jump or lift before the ball leaves the hookers hands. It is the equivalent of 'foot up' in a scrum.
While Gardner was correct and obviously wanted to clean the line out contest up for the game, it would have been better to have a word at the next break and warn them of going to penalties (same with the 'early movement call' on Coles). Owens or Joubert would have done that rather than disrupt the flow of the game which took an age to find any rhythm.
Get the game flowing first and your job as ref becomes easier IMO because players are operating more smoothly and making less errors.
I disagree. It wasn't a technical or marginal breach of the law. The Boks very deliberately lifted their man 2-3 seconds early to prompt the ABs to jump, and then they threw over the top to the unmarked jumper behind. Their actions are exactly what the law is designed to prevent and so they were pinged.
I thought Gardiner was very good.
I have no problem with the intent or technicality of the call, it was perfectly correct. I do feel however that AG is still learning the top end game management skills that make the difference to the game as a 'product'. I really do think a ref like Owens would have noted the infringement and had a word of warning with the Boks. Same with the minor scrum infractions. Players were getting frustrated and the game took forever to get any flow and rhythm to it.
I really disagree with the bolded bit. The incident was material because it did not allow a fair contest for the ball at the lineout. It also appeared to be deliberate. By ignoring it and "managing" it, Gardiner would have simply enabled a piece of illegality which helped one team over the other. Any ref that knowingly ignored an offence that had a material affect on the play that would open themelves up to criticism - be they Nigel Owens or whoever.
"Managing" things like players leaving their feet at breakdowns, hands in rucks, put in to scrums etc has been a pretty big disaster from what I can see.
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@Frank said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
Rugby is getting boring. We are too good.
Funny you should say that, in the UK post match discussion Delport and Fitzy were asked if the ABs domination was good for the game or not and isn't rugby better when there is more competitiveness? They both shirked around the answer a bit but eventually agreed more or less that it is not good for the game. However I do not see it as NZ's obligation to get worse, the rest of us need to get better.
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@Catogrande I think the scary thing for the opposition , I honestly believe this AB team can and will get better
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Just rewatched. A few comments (on things which haven't been commented on):
Fekitoa does look awkward on attack at moment. But fairly solid. Good on D and, not something I've seen mentioned elsewhere, gets involved at rucks when inside backs tackled, which much helps speed of recycling. I suspect the fact Crotty only requires one to mark cuts down the space, as compared to what he might expect if playing outside a Nonu for example.
Read very quiet in second half, after anonymous game against Argies.
Romano can pass -- pass to Coles helped set up Sam W.
SA replacement Kitshoff (a rather rotund fellow) seems to pack at 45 degrees. Can't see how Bok LH lock can possibly get any purchase. Hence monster AB scrum at 78.
But overall ABs looks a wee bit flat, despite the score.
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@Catogrande said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@Frank said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
Rugby is getting boring. We are too good.
Funny you should say that, in the UK post match discussion Delport and Fitzy were asked if the ABs domination was good for the game or not and isn't rugby better when there is more competitiveness? They both shirked around the answer a bit but eventually agreed more or less that it is not good for the game. However I do not see it as NZ's obligation to get worse, the rest of us need to get better.
I think it's pretty much a fact so, hopefully without being arrogant, I don't think it's a totally bad thing for rugby in general. The Aussies similarly dominated cricket for a while and it didn't remotely die. In fact, they've had lots of periods of dominance.
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@Catogrande said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@Frank said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
Rugby is getting boring. We are too good.
Funny you should say that, in the UK post match discussion Delport and Fitzy were asked if the ABs domination was good for the game or not and isn't rugby better when there is more competitiveness? They both shirked around the answer a bit but eventually agreed more or less that it is not good for the game. However I do not see it as NZ's obligation to get worse, the rest of us need to get better.
If Fitzy didn't pause to check if the host was being serious and then slap his knee in mirth, do that wee symbol of the your fingers playing a violin and exclaim "suck it up you piss weak whinging losers"
then
his journey to being a sell out is complete.
All empires fall eventually. Cato is right, improve, don't bemoan another's success
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@pakman said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
Mates discussed this whilst watching yesterday. That Oz cricket team were immense, but hell they were arrogant with it. At least the ABs make an effort to portray a fair measure of humility.
Nah we're so arrogant we don't acknowledge the opponent after we've won by 30....
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on Fekitoa i think some of the criticism is a wee bit harsh. to say he is a short term solution, maybe he is or isn't and i would agree if his current play was the best he can offer then he maybe keeping the seat warm. but i think he can play better than he is and is a bit down on confidence. i reckon he is a couple of line breaks and broken tackles away from breaking the shackles and regaining his fizz.
he is still very busy around the rucks and a committed tackler and player so not really a liability for the team. if the all blacks were losing and in desperate need for a midfield fix then situ would be different however they are winning easily and so the selectors at the moment can afford to allow the time for him to (hopefully) work out.
the comparisons with Nonu also a bit unfair as it's comparing a relatively inexperienced player with one who retired as arguably one of NZ's greatest ever mid fielders. Nonu took several years to establish himself let alone be considered a great player (not that I am suggesting Feks can or should be persevered with for that long).
I think Buckman chose a bad year to miss a season thru injury and might have had an opportunity in the AB environment this year if he'd played as well as he did last year and with the way things have gone. hope he comes back roaring next year and looking forward to seeing him back in action in the super comp.
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@Damo said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@broughie said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@mariner4life you mean those not picked because of quotas or injury?
I think the quota thing is overdone.
On another forum the question was asked who was picked on race and should not be there and there was only one player identified (reserve hooker Bongi), and even he had been dropped for the game against the AB's. Arguably he wasn't a quota player but a project player they were hoping to get some experience
There really aren't many (if any) players who are disadvantaged due to the quota system.
Does anyone else know of any player in the Boks who is there on race and not on merit?
De Allende has had a terrible season with the Lions Center outplaying him all season. Oupa Mohoje is another quota player.
More importantly however is the fact that implementing quotas means that you will not attract top coaching talent. This is why our Bok attacking coach is this guy:
CV:2013 Eastern Province U21(assistant)
2014–2015 Eastern Province Kings (Vodacom Cup head coach) -Vodacom cup is one tier below Currie Cup
2014–2015 Eastern Province U19 (head coach)
2016 Kings (assistant)
2016–present South Africa (assistant)The problem with selecting quota's (other than the obvious of keeping out more talented players) is that they then clog up the development of up and coming talent ie: Malcolm Marx cannot get a go off the bench because of Bongi keeping up the numbers.
The point I was making earlier in this thread is that the All Blacks are the best team on this planet, and these policies are not helping us compete.
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@taniwharugby said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
How stink must the Ioanes feel to be left out of this hilarious meme ?
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@RaGe_X said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@Damo said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@broughie said in All Pinks vs Boks - Christchurch:
@mariner4life you mean those not picked because of quotas or injury?
I think the quota thing is overdone.
On another forum the question was asked who was picked on race and should not be there and there was only one player identified (reserve hooker Bongi), and even he had been dropped for the game against the AB's. Arguably he wasn't a quota player but a project player they were hoping to get some experience
There really aren't many (if any) players who are disadvantaged due to the quota system.
Does anyone else know of any player in the Boks who is there on race and not on merit?
De Allende has had a terrible season with the Lions Center outplaying him all season. Oupa Mohoje is another quota player.
More importantly however is the fact that implementing quotas means that you will not attract top coaching talent. This is why our Bok attacking coach is this guy:
CV:2013 Eastern Province U21(assistant)
2014–2015 Eastern Province Kings (Vodacom Cup head coach) -Vodacom cup is one tier below Currie Cup
2014–2015 Eastern Province U19 (head coach)
2016 Kings (assistant)
2016–present South Africa (assistant)The problem with selecting quota's (other than the obvious of keeping out more talented players) is that they then clog up the development of up and coming talent ie: Malcolm Marx cannot get a go off the bench because of Bongi keeping up the numbers.
The point I was making earlier in this thread is that the All Blacks are the best team on this planet, and these policies are not helping us compete.
I agree completely. The quotas are killing SA rugby, not just at the top level. Without a doubt it would be ABs/SA 1 and 2 in the world with the talent available in SA. Must be tough work supporting them at the moment.
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