ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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We can't compare ourselves to SA here.
SA saw an economic oppertunity to shift from SANZAR to the north that fitted with their already exisitng TV audience and could fill the coffers even more, while allowing the flexibility to pick players from overseas (the vast majority of which are playing in the same competition already). It was a win/win scenario for them.
Given NZ teams will not be in the northern hemisphere competion, or our union reaping the financial rewards of being in that competiton all we have set to gain is the loss of our players overseas.
It's not a like for like, or apt comparision.
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Scotty Stephenson seems to think not until after this RWC cycle - that'd be funny if it happens after Razor goes!
MORE RUGBY
Eligibility rules not likely to change until 2028It appears New Zealand Rugby won’t be changing its rules around eligibility any time soon. Sources spoken to be Sidelines have said the national body sees no reason to change its policy right now and any further thoughts on the matter will only be considered after the current world cup cycle.
All Blacks Head Coach Scott Robertson has made no secret of the fact he would like New Zealand Rugby to keep an open mind on the matter, and discussed this once again after the side's final, underwhelming, match of the European tour against Italy. Credit to Robertson, his desire to have a few more experienced test players available has not been borne by the season's 10-4 record. He had discussed these matters even before the ink had dried on the All Blacks contract.
If New Zealand Rugby is to stick to its guns, that will also mean Super Rugby will be prevented from introducing greater player movement – something that long term proponents of a draft system, or an eligibility adjustment to allow players to be eligible for their national sides no matter what Super Rugby club they play for will be disappointed to hear.
There has been plenty of debate about whether rugby needs to move with the times, but it appears those times are at least three years away.
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@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@ARHS said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@canefan said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
This comment from Razor kind of pisses me off
“They’ve got a got a great balance. They’ve got youth coming through, they’ve got great benches, they finish over top of teams and they’ve got big squads – they can have two really quality XVs"
And how do you know we don't Scott?
I just did the tedious process of going through our lineups this year, and the stark reality is, the selectors played the same guys all game every game.
Williams, Taylor, Lomax, Vaai, SBarrett, Savea, BBarrett, DMac JBarrett, and Ioane, all basically started every game this year, and played huge minutes. Cane, Jordan, Clarke and Patty T played every game they were available. Once Sititi took his chance, he played non stop. ALB locked in one bench spot, and started any time JB didn't. EdG was the other one if he didn't be a bit naughty.
Those guys played nearly the whole season in terms of the minutes available. No one else got a reasonable shot at anything.Most unlike Rassie
Actually, I think the ABs and springboks used the same number of players this year
What? Sarcasm or poor research? Boks played 50 players this year. A lot of the fringers got multiple opportunities by plan. Razor stuck to core and seemingly only added opportunities via injuries. Compare Hanekom to Lio Willie and Jayden Hendrikse to Harry Plummer for involvement.
The very unforgiving NZ rugby public means razor had to produce from the word go. I can’t imagine what people on here would be saying if he had lost a few more this year through blooding new players. Rassie used 52 actually.
This is patently incorrect mate. If you had taken time to read much of what the boards on here were saying, most of us wanted Razor to properly trial new players, as it would appear Rassie did. I for one would have accepted some losses in that situation . Razor by comparison stuck to playing a bunch of his ageing veterans, some of which are not fit to start anymore and selected a few young players who he failed to seriously use. So we failed to blood new players, and failed to win all our games. The wider NZ public are generally drinking Razor's Kool aid
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@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@ARHS said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Give razor what he wants and judge him on that.
Are you an ex-Crusader angling for a bigger pay cheque and international exposure? That is the vibe you give.
It’s about winning
Which we can easily do with the players available.
If he picks the best players available to him.
Your shaky opinion that Mounga is better than DMac as the basis for NZ changing what has worked for 30 years is almost as hilarious as trying to call me an apartheid supporter.
Still, will make it even funnier when SA exit their purple patch.
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even if the old guard has done the clean sweep this year (which they didn't) im not sure the idea "its about winning" is correct if its only the next game we're talking about
my concern is we took a pass mark this year with some ugly wins using lots of known quantities....but was that the best move to ensuring we get wins in the coming years and the next RWC
are the wins we got this year worth potentially having more pain next year or the year after when forced to play young guys when the old ones are even further from their prime, would some pain this year when making a more deliberate move to blood the next generation not have been better, i think so
I feel in 2021 we were begrudging fozzie for taking so long to lock in a best 23...and feel we could be doing the same thing if next year is the experiment year....then 2026 will be the consolidate year before the 2027 world cup...it works IF....things fall into place, i feel we've used our buffer time just trying to win from week to week this year
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@Bones said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@ARHS said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Give razor what he wants and judge him on that.
Are you an ex-Crusader angling for a bigger pay cheque and international exposure? That is the vibe you give.
It’s about winning
Which we can easily do with the players available.
If he picks the best players available to him.
Your shaky opinion that Mounga is better than DMac as the basis for NZ changing what has worked for 30 years is almost as hilarious as trying to call me an apartheid supporter.
Still, will make it even funnier when SA exit their purple patch.
Ok. Do you think it will be razor or someone else who takes the ABs back to the top?
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@Kiwiwomble What positions are you really worried about?
For the next World Cup our front row already looks largely sorted.
We've got a flood of talented youngsters coming through at lock if Patty and/or Scott fail.
I'd like to find a tall blindside (Finau/Parker/Wrampling/Frizell) - but Sititi has done a fabulous job this year - he's cover if Ardie should fail at 8, but I see no reason he will. Paps and Lakai can duel for the openside (Peter looks like a young Michael Jones, so Dalton has his work cut out).
We've used five halfbacks this year - four of them can readily go through to 2027 and there's a couple of others in the mix.
First five - Mo'unga. DMac, Barrett, Jacomb - if Beaudy fails we need to have a third guy.
Midfield - would be good to upgrade ALB and Havili, but I'm perfectly comfortable if we don't find a combo better than Jordie and Rieko as starters.
We need to find a new right wing or two - because Mark and Sevu seem unlikely to make it to 2027.
Jordan might go back there if Love can surpass him, but I doubt that will happen.
Really, I reckon we've already pretty much got 75 percent of the puzzle for 2027 - and a lot of the rest is hoping for upgrades on positions we're already comfortable with.
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@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Bones said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@ARHS said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Give razor what he wants and judge him on that.
Are you an ex-Crusader angling for a bigger pay cheque and international exposure? That is the vibe you give.
It’s about winning
Which we can easily do with the players available.
If he picks the best players available to him.
Your shaky opinion that Mounga is better than DMac as the basis for NZ changing what has worked for 30 years is almost as hilarious as trying to call me an apartheid supporter.
Still, will make it even funnier when SA exit their purple patch.
Ok. Do you think it will be razor or someone else who takes the ABs back to the top?
Razor ignored a bunch of guys in great form and still almost did it with a bunch of has beens and never weres, so I don't see why he can't. Remember how both tests against SA were in SA? Yeah that won't be the case next year.
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@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Bones said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Bones said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MN5 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Beaver was getting quite hot under the collar there.
…….and good on him too, what a welcome change from the circle jerk Razor fluffers we’ve become so accustomed to.
I don’t like razor, but why not let him pick the players he wants? He was picked to be a winning coach and wants to pick players who play out of the country. This circle the wagons mentality from NZ rugby is shortsighted and is hurting your national team. Laughable that beaver thinks players have to sacrifice money play for the jersey. These are professional players!
I'm prepared to back Jake White over this disconnected waffle.
Sure, justify your viewpoint even if it means siding with a clown
It says something when White is more in touch with the vibe than you eh.
The vibe? Sorry, didn’t realize I was supposed to be vibing. With your provincial comps not doing well and rugby generally in decline in NZ picking players that will allow NZ to return to the top will incentivize youngsters to play and will pay off in the long term. It will also give more players exposure to rugby in places other than NZ and give them the chance to be noticed. Give razor what he wants and judge him on that.
He got the job knowing his resources. He got what he wanted. He wants to change the goal posts for short term gain.
SA have made their choice, and parochialism is influencing some people's opinions. We did this, thus our way is the best...
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@booboo said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Bones said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Bones said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MN5 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Beaver was getting quite hot under the collar there.
…….and good on him too, what a welcome change from the circle jerk Razor fluffers we’ve become so accustomed to.
I don’t like razor, but why not let him pick the players he wants? He was picked to be a winning coach and wants to pick players who play out of the country. This circle the wagons mentality from NZ rugby is shortsighted and is hurting your national team. Laughable that beaver thinks players have to sacrifice money play for the jersey. These are professional players!
I'm prepared to back Jake White over this disconnected waffle.
Sure, justify your viewpoint even if it means siding with a clown
It says something when White is more in touch with the vibe than you eh.
The vibe? Sorry, didn’t realize I was supposed to be vibing. With your provincial comps not doing well and rugby generally in decline in NZ picking players that will allow NZ to return to the top will incentivize youngsters to play and will pay off in the long term. It will also give more players exposure to rugby in places other than NZ and give them the chance to be noticed. Give razor what he wants and judge him on that.
He got the job knowing his resources. He got what he wanted. He wants to change the goal posts for short term gain.
SA have made their choice, and parochialism is influencing some people's opinions. We did this, thus our way is the best...
Not at all. The point I was making is that if you give the coach what he wants, he’s more likely to produce his best effort. Treating him like a spoilt child might not be productive.
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@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Picking any player he wants will result in more winning.
Assertion isn't an argument.
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@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@booboo said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Bones said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Bones said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@W32 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MN5 said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Beaver was getting quite hot under the collar there.
…….and good on him too, what a welcome change from the circle jerk Razor fluffers we’ve become so accustomed to.
I don’t like razor, but why not let him pick the players he wants? He was picked to be a winning coach and wants to pick players who play out of the country. This circle the wagons mentality from NZ rugby is shortsighted and is hurting your national team. Laughable that beaver thinks players have to sacrifice money play for the jersey. These are professional players!
I'm prepared to back Jake White over this disconnected waffle.
Sure, justify your viewpoint even if it means siding with a clown
It says something when White is more in touch with the vibe than you eh.
The vibe? Sorry, didn’t realize I was supposed to be vibing. With your provincial comps not doing well and rugby generally in decline in NZ picking players that will allow NZ to return to the top will incentivize youngsters to play and will pay off in the long term. It will also give more players exposure to rugby in places other than NZ and give them the chance to be noticed. Give razor what he wants and judge him on that.
He got the job knowing his resources. He got what he wanted. He wants to change the goal posts for short term gain.
SA have made their choice, and parochialism is influencing some people's opinions. We did this, thus our way is the best...
Not at all. The point I was making is that if you give the coach what he wants, he’s more likely to produce his best effort. Treating him like a spoilt child might not be productive.
The spoilt child here is Razor. He knew the rules when he signed up. I'd be telling Razor go select and play the best players in Super Rugby to start with and see how that goes first.
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how exactly do we think NPC teams will attract overseas players (other than aus as they dont have their own domestic comp)? its semi pro for locals so the real dregs, those that truly just need to keep on the professional games radar
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Putting aside the Razor part of it, I’m in tentative support of us picking players while on longer term sabbaticals.
The article linked to earlier was talking about allowing players two seasons in the NH, and I’d be ok with us selecting them as long as it was part of (say) a 3-4 yr contract with 2 NH seasons. I’ll admit it is essentially a Giteau rule, just wrapped in an NZ contract. As I see it, this would help players earn more and it does seem true that NH teams (including. Japan) want 2 seasons with players.
I can see one potential benefit in that these players would stay part of the AB training and could still be selected, so we might not see the dramatic drop-offs that we’ve seen for other players. It does seem a bit of a holiday at the moment and that appears to have an impact.
The tricky part would be if someone decides they want out after their two NH seasons (ie does t want to return home). If that became a pattern (essentially, get two years overseas as an AB then jump off) then I don’t think I’d love the potential impact on players here.
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As I have said before this rule change appears to be tailored for about 3 or 4 players all of which are likely coming back soon, when that is announced we might have some clarity. In terms of sourcing others who are playing in Japan, Europe and UK, would there be that many who would be good enough to play for the All Blacks? Have often wondered about how many Kiwis in Aussie Super teams might be good enough. Even the Drua had a 10 who was one of Richie Mounga's relatives, who looked pretty good.
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I like a limited application of an overseas selection.
One thing I’m a little concerned about and it has only been exacerbated with the exit of SA based super teams, is the very limited exposure we have to overseas styles and the playing experience that comes with that.
Pro rugby today is a game of very fine margins and having a player that has played for example in France or England week in week out against their test players or with them provides an insight that we simply don’t get from coaches and players watching film.
