The Silver Fern

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555202" data-time="1454118003">
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I don't doubt that South Africa have some of the best attendances in club rugby - in south Africa.
 
However, you stated this in the context of SA fans being more passionate than Irish ones as if somehow this made a difference. So what if they are? 
 
83,000 fans turned out to watch a club game between Leinster and Munster out of a population of 2.5m approx. 40,000 Stormers fans turned out to watch a game out of a population of how many millions?
 
Are you arguing that you measure passion as a proportion of population? Or how many times over that you could fill 12 stadiums with a finite capacity? Or what?
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Well, I'm not sure how else we can measure passion other than by attendances. Other than that, I can only go by what I see on TV, and I'm not sure I've ever seen more passionate support for a RWC than 1995.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="555201" data-time="1454117817">
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You say you're a journalist of some sort but dont understand how you can get into trouble asserting something as a fact without proof? What kind of newspaper accepts an article without verifiable sources?
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Do you personally keep a record of such things? Most mortal human beings just accumulate knowledge through reading - then share it with others in amiable discussion.
 
Also, I haven't been a journalist for almost 20 years, although I do still contribute articles to various newspapers from time to time.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555185" data-time="1454116341">
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That's all you had to say... :)
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Thanks. Some things I do google, but I'm an avid reader of both online and printed material, so of course I can't provide references for every comment I make. That's an absurd ploy to derail the discussion.
 
Anyway, I did provide a link (unsatisfactory to some though it may have been) supporting my comment about South African crowds at Super Rugby games being the biggest in domestic competition anywhere in the world - including Ireland. That surely reflects the amount of interest there is in the game there - ie passion.
 
"By the way, what country are you from? What's your own personal experience of rugby - playing it or following it?"
 
Grew up in NZ and played my rugby there. Also played a season of league in Aussie. I later got into sports journalism. But I've been abroad for around 20 years now, currently in Turkey, as someone already pointed out.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="555176" data-time="1454116015">
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You mean a forum is the place to simply make shit up and ignore that you've been corrected? Where factual accuracy means nothing? I'm sure you take the same approach when people take a guess at your IQ or general competence at daily tasks normal people execute without difficulty? 

 
Unfortunately your source states the lowest home crowd figure for the Stormers was 35,412 which would be difficult when SARU themselves list the fixture against the Rebels as having an attendance of <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.sarugby.net/component/match_centre/?view=match&id=136644&leagueid=2174&homeid=23224&awayid=23344'>23,137</a>
 
Care to address this marked mathematical discrepancy?
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It's not my web-site, dude. Why don't you write a letter to them expressing your grievances. I'm just trying to obliged everybody by posting the links that are apparently required to back up every single comment I make on this forum - even though nobody else seems to be doing this. I've actually come up with quite a lot of data to support my comments, unlike most of the self-appointed senior detectives around here.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="555172" data-time="1454115620">
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If you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you. If you cannot prove your claim to be true, then we have no reason to believe it. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
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What if I can't be arsed? 
 
Anyway, I just posted a link about the Stormers' average attendances, because I took the trouble to google those particular stats so the link was easy to find.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="555165" data-time="1454114863">
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That's not how it works. The burden of proof is on the one who asserts. 
No they didn't. Why do you lie about easily verifiable data?
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Everybody's a police detective on this forum. & there was me thinking forums were places for casual chats and exchanges of views. :idiot2:
 
According to this they do: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477'>http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477</a>

Rowan

I can't believe we're even comparing South Africa and Ireland's weather conditions. That's a no-contest, just like the stadia comparisons.
 
"One could argue that since SA is a "superpower in rugby" and has hosted it before, and a Soccer World Cup as well for good measure, then it would be better to award it to a country where the game is growing and needs to be encouraged further to grow participation in the game, and that hasn't hosted it before."
 
Only Italy among the bidding nations fits that description, but that's another 6 Nations member in the same small corner of of the planet. Don't get me wrong, I'd be thrilled to see them awarded the 2027 World Cup - which isn't so far away. But giving it to a developing nation every time would be a little reckless. We need to look after the established markets as well. In fact, that's absolutely crucial. Globalization means spreading the game around the continents, not concentrating your efforts on a bunch of nations in one particular region of the planet. So I think the wisest approach from both angles would be to alternate it between rugby heartlands and developing nations; just as it ought to be alternated between the hemispheres (something that won't happen in 2019). Therefore, South Africa in 2023, Italy in 2027 seems like the perfect formula to me.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="555158" data-time="1454113149">
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Ellis Park was half empty for the All Blacks second test in South Africa since readmission during the 1995 World Cup. So scratch that off the list.
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Even half empty that's over 30,000. & this is what Ellis Park looked like last time a RWC match was staged there:

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555155" data-time="1454112334">
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I'm curious as to how one could measure passion in the first place. Nonetheless, I suppose some indicators are levels of support, number of travelling fans, etc. 
The big 'clubs' in Ireland are the four provinces. I presume you haven't been on the sidelines of a Leinster v Munster rugby match in Croke Park for example? 
Or that Munster would be recognised as having one of the best travelling fan support in European rugby? 
I reckon there's sufficient passion and fanaticism around in Irish sport, including rugby. To be frank, knowing Ireland as I do, if Ireland were to be awarded an RWC, the whole country would likely go mad like Italia '90.
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Though attendances at provincial and Super Rugby games in South Africa are much bigger. In fact, South Africa has the best attendances of all the SANZAR nations, and probably the best in the world. As mentioned already, their rugby community is also about four times the size of Ireland's.
 
As far as Super Rugby stats go, last year the Stormers averaged 40,000 per home game, the Bulls averaged 27,000, the Lions 25,000, the Sharks 20,000 and the Cheetahs 18,000. This is, generally speaking, well ahead of NZ & Aussie crowds. It's is also well ahead of the approximately 12,000 average at Aviva Premiership matches. However, Leinster is the best supported team iwith an average home attendance of 20,000. Munster 14,000 and Ulster 10,000 follow. Connacht only average about 5000 at home games.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555145" data-time="1454111090">
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If Ireland hosted the RWC in the same timeframe as France in 2007, then it could begin on 7 September in theory and finish on 20 Oct approx.
 
The venues would be based around the island of Ireland. Mean temperatures vary from coast to coast - but it is perfectly temperate weather and very suitable for rugby.
 
There's plenty of places to stay - 700,00 stayed in October 2015.
 
Easy international access through a number of airports. Modern roadway network with train and bus between cities and towns. 
 
Nationwide community sporting network through GAA that can easily put in place a hosting town programme for every team. 
 
We'll jus
t
 have to wait
 
World Rugby could decide to award it to a nation that hasn't hosted it before. Having 2-3 pool games doesn't really count as hosting. Equally, they might view Italy's bid in that light.
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Ireland have hosted about a dozen RWC games in total, including 3 play-offs. Some of the crowds were pretty abysmal, I think 3000 for one game in Dublin, and 9000 for another in Belfast.
 
They weather would be pretty chilly and wet - unless they held it in the middle of summer.
 
South Africa receives direct flights from most major European cities.
 
Its infrastructure is the equal of Ireland's - only on a much bigger scale.
 
But, yes, we'll have to wait and see. All things being equal, it ought to come down to a choice between globalization through continental rotation or returning the tournament to its motherland (the Home Unions) for the fifth time from 10 events. I say 'ought to' because more likely it'll come down to the wheeling and dealing of the central committee members behind-the-scenes.

Rowan

" If the opinion was that widely held the evidence would be easy to find."
 
So why don't you disprove it for us? Should be easy enough to find the evidence to back up your claims to the contrary. In fact, you've failed to back up pretty much all your comments on this thread with the links to articles, statistics and quotes, etc, you apparently find so vital.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="555143" data-time="1454110431">
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More passionate? Than the Irish? Now i know you're on the troll
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I think that's a fair comment. South Africa dominated world rugby through most of the amateur era and remains a super power in the sport. Success breeds fanatacism and passion. I'm sure the Irish fans are passionate about their rugby too, but not to the same extent. Probably most of the fans who'd go to a World Cup game or any other major international match would never be seen on the sidelines of a club rugby game - nor even have a favorite club to support.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Wurzel" data-cid="555135" data-time="1454108707">
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The reason so many of the games at the business end of the 2011 RWC were played in Auckland was because of...
 
<img src="http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1298891438/116/4715116.jpg" alt="4715116.jpg">
 
... please jog on Rowan. You've made an absolute fool of yourself on two forums this week. And the more you post the more you embarrass yourself.
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Yes, very sad. I had family in the region and they felt it. They've since moved back to the North Island. But the reason why the business end of the tournament had to be staged mostly in one city bears no relevance to how the revised format was received by fans abroad. The question that was put to me related to the popularity of the 2011 World Cup from the outsiders' perspective.
 
"So your "widely held opinion" boils down to Paul Ackford getting jetlag? You have no evidence other than the tenuous things I've quoted above to back up your rather bold claim? No links to articles from people saying it was the worst ever? "
 
I read a great deal, and not only on the net. It would be impossible to keep track of it all. n any case, I'm merely expressing my views and observations here. I didn't realize that it was obligatory to back up every comment with links to articles, statistics and quotes, etc. I mean, no one else seems to be doing much of that.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="555133" data-time="1454106029">
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Yeah. Pretty sure the RWC window is now pretty much permanently Sept-Oct. 
What's the chance of rain in SA at that time of year? 
Rowan, re the 2% in June I assume you are talking in the veldt? And ruling out playing any matches in Cape Town. Recall some abominable weather there for winter test matches.
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So you're now trying to argue Ireland's case versus South Africa in terms of weather.
 
"You seem to be moving the goalposts a touch. Is your concern that Ireland will not have enough local interest for a RWC and on-field performance is evidence in past World Cups is evidence of this?"
 
No. How on earth did you construe that?
 
"As a proportion of national population I am almost certain Ireland will give more of a shit about a RWC than RSA."
 
About the same, I'd say, except that South Africa's rugby communitiy (roughly four times as big as Irelands') is likely a great deal more passionate. Also, by your method of evaluation, the US would never host it, and Japan shouldn't have got it either, and even France ought to be a fair way down the pecking order. Meanwhile, it seems that, with its minute geographical proportions and immense 'giving a shit about a RWC,' Samoa would meet all your criteria.

Rowan

I think the comments about terrorism are a fair response to the earlier comments about crime. South Africa has proved that it can stage major tournaments without them being effected by crime. It's not the only country with a crime problem either. The US certainly has this in common, but has never been denied a major tournament on that basis.
 
Yes, the 95 semi was hit by a freakish downpour. Reminded me of ABs v Scotland in 74. So it could have happened in Auckland too, and that's a city that has hosted 2 World Cup finals. & it could have happened in Australia, not to mention anywhere in Europe, of course. But the statistics I provided earlier in the thread showed rain was a 2% chance in SA in June (probably why it seemed so freakish), but a 60% and 74% chance in Dublin and Belfast respectively, in October.
 
SA is not the first rankings outsider to have staged the FIFA World Cup. The US, Japan & Korea already beat them to it. But the popularity of the sport in SA ensured that it would be a success despite this. Football has this luxury because precisely because of its popularity. Rugby doesn't. It's only the number 1 team sport in NZ and the Pacific Islands, in terms of playing numbers (I believe football has overtaken rugby in Wales).
 
Re: the popularity of the NZ World Cup abroad, some things I read about it were that the TV viewing times were not good for most, of course, travelling fans had to make expensive, long haul flights (Paul Ackford was one who complained about the jetlag effect), one city hosted much of the business end of the tournament and there were all sorts of transportation problems, the five-team groups induced the usual complaints about short turn-arounds, Fiji were not permitted to send their best team, many of the group games were basically played in farmsville and lacked atmosphere, and the Mexican waves became so cliche that were almost as annoying as South Africa's vuvezelas.

Rowan

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"Almost everybody else here has been saying the 99 format was a shambles. I didn't think it was bad."
 
 
Yes, that was my opinion. I didn't give you a personal anecdote. That would've been to regale you with reminiscences of my trip to Cardiff for the 3rd-place playoff.
 
 
 
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="555113" data-time="1454094413">
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Out of interest Rowan what were your feelings about South Africa hosting the soccer world cup in 2010?
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My opinion was that it was a successful tournament. Also, FIFA gave it a 9 out of 10, near-perfect, while analysts said this would help improve perceptions of Africa and help development throughout the continent as a whole. FIFA surveys suggested the tournament had "done wonders for South Africans' confidence and optimism. Author John Carlin, in 'Playing the Enemy,' rated it an even better tournament than the 1995 RWC, South African president Jacob Zuma described the event as "one of the greatest achievements of the post-apartheid era," and said the fans were the "true stars," uniting to show the world that the country and the continent were capable of hosting world class events. Nine major cities hosted the event in 10 superb stadiums which generally exceeded tournament requirements. Soccer City was subsequently named winner of 'Design and Construction' at the prestigious international Leaf Awards. Sepp Blatter described it as one of the most beautiful stadiums in the world. Durban's 'Surf City' was among the many hits with the touring fans. South Africa reaped major rewards from tourism during the event. Over a million visitors arrived during the first week of the tournament alone. The opening match set a record TV viewing audience for South Africa, while ratings were also particularly high in Europe, North and South America and China. Crime did not effect the tournament.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555110" data-time="1454088624">
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Yep - it was the coolest April since 1989. Temps ranged from 8-15 in Dublin. And it would be fair to say that you have little or no personal experience of the country. 
 
South Africa and Ireland are both popular tourist destinations, as evidenced by their growing tourist numbers each year. Each has its own attractions. The size of cities and places is not really relevant in the context of Ireland - particularly when the plan is to spread the games around the country as opposed to all in one place. 
 
You have your view on the quality of the stadia in each country. Clearly South Africa has more of them. But it's not just about how many, it's also where they are located, facilities and resources around them, and ease of access for people moving around. 
 
The "creaking old stadiums" that you've referred to are listed in an earlier post of mine. Most of them have been or are currently being re-developed within the last ten years, simply because the demand and market is there for them. There is an inevitable amount of facilities upgrading to be done to number of them for media, catering, etc, but all entirely achievable, budgeted for, underwritten, and capable of being completed within time. I think you'll find that some of the stadia in South Africa are also "old", but they have had similar upgrades over the years.
 
In terms of capacity, the stadia used in England ranged from Sandy Park 12,300 to 5 stadia in the 30-40k capacity, 3 in the 50-53k range and 3 in the 70-90 range.
 
Ireland doesn't have the same spread clearly. However, Croke Park, which has been used Six Nations tournaments previously, would host opening and finals stage matches with Lansdowne Road taking some of the other big matches. There are a couple of other 50ks, 30-40ks, and 25ks. All of them suitable for use. The numbers have to stack up.
 
It's fair comment to say that Ireland could well turn around and say that they are going to use the Millennium stadium in Wales in order to drive up numbers. But the financial proposal submitted has to stack up on an all-island basis first with the resources and facilities that are here, not elsewhere. During the assessment and feasibility stages, partnerships with other nations, notably Scotland and Wales in a putative Celtic RWC bid, were considered and dropped. We'll have to wait and see what happens, but I know there is a strong determination that it will only be hosted in Ireland, and nowhere else, despite the inevitable vote-trading that happens around these bids. 
 
PS The European surfing championships have been regularly held in Ireland around Bundoran on North-West coast - best times being Sept-Dec. No one gets shot or robbed - or eaten by sharks even. :)
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Coolest April since 89? Just my luck! But I have provided figures from the Irish meteorological servce which indicate both Dublin and Belfast are generally quite cool and wet in May as well.
 
Yes, my only point about the stadia is that South Africa has more - and much of it rugby-purpose. I'm not saying Ireland couldn't host it. They certainly could. But what kind of a tournament would it be? That's my main concern, and I've already expressed the reasons why, without going over it again. & even if we were to consider the bids entirely equal on merit, then it really comes down to whether World Rugby wants to rotate its tournament around the continents, or just send it back to France & the Home Unions on every second occasion. It comes down to whether South Africa should receive it again almost 30 years after doing such a fantastic job the first time, or whether the British Isles should be involved in hosting it for a 5th time, just 8 years after England - while Ireland would be involved for the third time. It comes down to whether it is staged in the world's 2nd largest rugby community, and a nation which has won two World Cups to date, or whether it is staged in the world's 7th largest rugby community, and a nation which has never made a World Cup semi-final.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="555036" data-time="1454056389">
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Aaaaaargh! Fuck it. Memory is a bastard. And what's more I do need to check my maths. Sorry Rowan.
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No need to apologise. :)
 
Yes, France hosted as recently as 2007 and are probably only bidding this time to strengthen their case for 2027. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they ended up co-hosting with Italy. I only hope that Italy would be the senior partner in such a venture, though I suspect they would have to be the junior. Btw, previous Italian bids included the French city of Marseille among the proposed venues.
 
"Another concern with hosting in South Africa is the current issue with pitch invaders with villainous intentions. I've only seen two pitch invaders make contact with players during a test and both were South African - the most recent being in this past RWC against Samoa. This is a clear trend which is googleable. I'm not sure we can even guarantee the safety of the players and officials on the paddock, let a lone off."
 
 :mocking: Grasping at straws there, I think. That would easily be dealt with. & there have been plenty of pitch invasions elsewhere, including NZ:

Football cancellation in Europe because of terrorist threat: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/11/17/news/football-match-cancelled-due-to-bomb-fears-326875/'>http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/11/17/news/football-match-cancelled-due-to-bomb-fears-326875/</a>
Football cancellations in Ireland because of terrible weather: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35333560'>http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35333560</a>

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JC" data-cid="555104" data-time="1454083376">
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And? My anecdotes are just as worthy of filling space here as your opinion. And at least they have the benefit of being based on experience, whereas yours is based on Google, ignorance and hot air.
 
And it wasn't just an anecdote. There was an insult in there that could be construed as being aimed at you. Do you want me to point it out so you can report it?
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Well, my brother often goes on surfing trips to Durban and loves the place. A few of my friends have been there and done safari tours and all, and loved the place as well. None of them got shot or robbed or anything.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555103" data-time="1454081210">
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Rowan. When did you visit Ireland - where did you go and what time of year? 
Simple question.
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April 2000. Dublin. Stayed in the Times Hostel, I think it was. Very chilly, not much above zero, but no rain as I recall. It was just a weekend trip I was working just out of Douglas on the Isle of Man at the time.

The Silver Fern

Rowan

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