2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555149" data-time="1454111320"><p>"<span style="color:#282828;"><span style="font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"> If the opinion was that widely held the evidence would be easy to find."</span></span><br>
<br><span style="color:#282828;"><span style="font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">So why don't you disprove it for us? Should be easy enough to find the evidence to back up your claims to the contrary. In fact, you've failed to back up pretty much all your comments on this thread with the links to articles, statistics and quotes, etc, you apparently find so vital.</span></span></p></blockquote>
<br>
Is that a joke? You claimed it was widely held to be the worst rwc but couldn't find a single thing to back it up now you're telling me I have to prove that you're wrong? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555148" data-time="1454111200"><p>I think that's a fair comment. South Africa dominated world rugby through most of the amateur era and remains a super power in the sport. Success breeds fanatacism and passion. I'm sure the Irish fans are passionate about their rugby too, but not to the same extent. Probably most of the fans who'd go to a World Cup game or any other major international match would never be seen on the sidelines of a club rugby game - nor even have a favorite club to support.</p></blockquote>
<br>
More evidence that you know nothing of the Irish rugby scene. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555148" data-time="1454111200"><p>
I think that's a fair comment. South Africa dominated world rugby through most of the amateur era and remains a super power in the sport. Success breeds fanatacism and passion. I'm sure the Irish fans are passionate about their rugby too, but not to the same extent. Probably most of the fans who'd go to a World Cup game or any other major international match would never be seen on the sidelines of a club rugby game - nor even have a favorite club to support.</p></blockquote>
<br>
I'm curious as to how one could measure passion in the first place. Nonetheless, I suppose some indicators are levels of support, number of travelling fans, etc. <br><br>
The big 'clubs' in Ireland are the four provinces. I presume you haven't been on the sidelines of a Leinster v Munster rugby match in Croke Park for example? <br><br>
Or that Munster would be recognised as having one of the best travelling fan support in European rugby?<br><br>
I reckon there's sufficient passion and fanaticism around in Irish sport, including rugby. To be frank, knowing Ireland as I do, if Ireland were to be awarded an RWC, the whole country would likely go mad like Italia '90. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555145" data-time="1454111090">
<div>
<p>If Ireland hosted the RWC in the same timeframe as France in 2007, then it could begin on 7 September in theory and finish on 20 Oct approx.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The venues would be based around the island of Ireland. Mean temperatures vary from coast to coast - but it is perfectly temperate weather and very suitable for rugby.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There's plenty of places to stay - 700,00 stayed in October 2015.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Easy international access through a number of airports. Modern roadway network with train and bus between cities and towns. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nationwide community sporting network through GAA that can easily put in place a hosting town programme for every team. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>We'll jus</p>
<p>t</p>
<p> have to wait</p>
<p> </p>
<p>World Rugby could decide to award it to a nation that hasn't hosted it before. Having 2-3 pool games doesn't really count as hosting. Equally, they might view Italy's bid in that light.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Ireland have hosted about a dozen RWC games in total, including 3 play-offs. Some of the crowds were pretty abysmal, I think 3000 for one game in Dublin, and 9000 for another in Belfast.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>They weather would be pretty chilly and wet - unless they held it in the middle of summer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>South Africa receives direct flights from most major European cities.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its infrastructure is the equal of Ireland's - only on a much bigger scale.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But, yes, we'll have to wait and see. All things being equal, it ought to come down to a choice between globalization through continental rotation or returning the tournament to its motherland (the Home Unions) for the fifth time from 10 events. I say 'ought to' because more likely it'll come down to the wheeling and dealing of the central committee members behind-the-scenes. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555155" data-time="1454112334">
<div>
<p>I'm curious as to how one could measure passion in the first place. Nonetheless, I suppose some indicators are levels of support, number of travelling fans, etc.<br><br>
The big 'clubs' in Ireland are the four provinces. I presume you haven't been on the sidelines of a Leinster v Munster rugby match in Croke Park for example?<br><br>
Or that Munster would be recognised as having one of the best travelling fan support in European rugby?<br><br>
I reckon there's sufficient passion and fanaticism around in Irish sport, including rugby. To be frank, knowing Ireland as I do, if Ireland were to be awarded an RWC, the whole country would likely go mad like Italia '90.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Though attendances at provincial and Super Rugby games in South Africa are much bigger. In fact, South Africa has the best attendances of all the SANZAR nations, and probably the best in the world. As mentioned already, their rugby community is also about four times the size of Ireland's.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As far as Super Rugby stats go, last year the Stormers averaged 40,000 per home game, the Bulls averaged 27,000, the Lions 25,000, the Sharks 20,000 and the Cheetahs 18,000. This is, generally speaking, well ahead of NZ & Aussie crowds. It's is also well ahead of the approximately 12,000 average at Aviva Premiership matches. However, Leinster is the best supported team iwith an average home attendance of 20,000. Munster 14,000 and Ulster 10,000 follow. Connacht only average about 5000 at home games.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555156" data-time="1454112414">
<div>
<p>Ireland have hosted about a dozen RWC games in total, including 3 play-offs. Some of the crowds were pretty abysmal, I think 3000 for one game in Dublin, and 9000 for another in Belfast.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Ellis Park was half empty for the All Blacks second test in South Africa since readmission during the 1995 World Cup. So scratch that off the list.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ireland sold out Thommond Park against Munster B on Tuesday after playing a packed Croke Park on the Saturday in 2008.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Seems to be a fair difference in appetite for rugby even when looking through your twisted prism.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555156" data-time="1454112414">
<div>
<p>Ireland have hosted about a dozen RWC games in total, including 3 play-offs. Some of the crowds were pretty abysmal, I think 3000 for one game in Dublin, and 9000 for another in Belfast.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>They weather would be pretty chilly and wet - unless they held it in the middle of summer.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>South Africa receives direct flights from most major European cities.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its infrastructure is the equal of Ireland's - only on a much bigger scale.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But, yes, we'll have to wait and see. All things being equal, it ought to come down to a choice between globalization through continental rotation or returning the tournament to its motherland (the Home Unions) for the fifth time from 10 events. I say 'ought to' because more likely it'll come down to the wheeling and dealing of the central committee members behind-the-scenes. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>You seem to consistently ignore that since I live here, I would know what the weather would be like in September and October in Dublin. Chilly and wet it wasn't.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Crowds for matches in the 90s are hardly an indicator of attendances today or levels of interest. There were 1,500 turning up to some Leinster club matches in the late nineties - today, they can fill Lansdowne Road. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>You illustrate my point perfectly - Ireland's involvement in two of the previous RWCs was a small number of the total matches. They shared a pool with Scotland in the first one. No sense of being involved, ownership or hosting the event.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Edit: The match attendances were for a game in Belfast at Ravenhill between Japan and Zimbabwe. Ravenhill capacity at the time was 12,200 and they got a crowd of 9,500 in 1991. Ignoring the fact that 54,000 turned up to watch Aus v NZ in the same tournament.</p>
<p>The 3,000 game was between USA and Romania at Lansdowne Road , held the day before Ireland played Australia to a full house.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>One could argue that since SA is a "superpower in rugby" and has hosted it before, and a Soccer World Cup as well for good measure, then it would be better to award it to a country where the game is growing and needs to be encouraged further to grow participation in the game, and that hasn't hosted it before. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="555158" data-time="1454113149">
</p>
<div>
<p>Ellis Park was half empty for the All Blacks second test in South Africa since readmission during the 1995 World Cup. So scratch that off the list.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Even half empty that's over 30,000. & this is what Ellis Park looked like last time a RWC match was staged there:</p>
<p> </p>
<p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555149" data-time="1454111320"><p>"<span style="color:#282828;"><span style="font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"> If the opinion was that widely held the evidence would be easy to find."</span></span><br> <br><span style="color:#282828;"><span style="font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">So why don't you disprove it for us?</span></span></p></blockquote> <br>That's not how it works. The burden of proof is on the one who asserts.<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555157" data-time="1454112917"><p>As far as Super Rugby stats go, last year the Stormers averaged 40,000 per home game</p></blockquote>No they didn't. Why do you lie about easily verifiable data?
-
<p>I can't believe we're even comparing South Africa and Ireland's weather conditions. That's a no-contest, just like the stadia comparisons.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"<span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">One could argue that since SA is a "superpower in rugby" and has hosted it before, and a Soccer World Cup as well for good measure, then it would be better to award it to a country where the game is growing and needs to be encouraged further to grow participation in the game, and that hasn't hosted it before."</span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Only Italy among the bidding nations fits that description, but that's another 6 Nations member in the same small corner of of the planet. Don't get me wrong, I'd be thrilled to see them awarded the 2027 World Cup - which isn't so far away. But giving it to a developing nation every time would be a little reckless. We need to look after the established markets as well. In fact, that's absolutely crucial. Globalization means spreading the game around the continents, not concentrating your efforts on a bunch of nations in one particular region of the planet. So I think the wisest approach from both angles would be to alternate it between rugby heartlands and developing nations; just as it ought to be alternated between the hemispheres (something that won't happen in 2019). Therefore, South Africa in 2023, Italy in 2027 seems like the perfect formula to me.</span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555162" data-time="1454114543">
</p>
<div>
<p><strong>Even half empty that's over 30,000.</strong> & this is what Ellis Park looked like last time a RWC match was staged there:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I will defer to you on that one as you are clearly the expert on things running at half capacity.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="555165" data-time="1454114863">
<div>
<p> <br>
That's not how it works. The burden of proof is on the one who asserts.<br><br>
No they didn't. Why do you lie about easily verifiable data?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Everybody's a police detective on this forum. & there was me thinking forums were places for casual chats and exchanges of views. :idiot2:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>According to this they do: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477'>http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="555168" data-time="1454115228">
<div>
<p>I will defer to you on that one as you are clearly the expert on things running at half capacity.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="http://emotionsblog.history.qmul.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/images.jpg" alt="images.jpg"></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555169" data-time="1454115402">
<div>
<p>Everybody's a police detective on this forum. & there was me thinking forums were places for <strong>casual chats and exchanges of views</strong>. :idiot2:</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>They are, but you make outlandish claims but can't back them up and then squirm and lie when people call you on them. People don't like being lied to and treated like fools.</p> -
If you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you. If you cannot prove your claim to be true, then we have no reason to believe it. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="555172" data-time="1454115620">
<div>
<p>If you make a claim then the burden of proof is on you. If you cannot prove your claim to be true, then we have no reason to believe it. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>What if I can't be arsed? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyway, I just posted a link about the Stormers' average attendances, because I took the trouble to google those particular stats so the link was easy to find.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555169" data-time="1454115402">
<p>Everybody's a police detective on this forum. & there was me thinking forums were places for casual chats and exchanges of views. :idiot2:</p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>You mean a forum is the place to simply make shit up and ignore that you've been corrected? Where factual accuracy means nothing? I'm sure you take the same approach when people take a guess at your IQ or general competence at daily tasks normal people execute without difficulty?<br>
</p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p>According to this they do: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477'>http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Unfortunately your source states the lowest home crowd figure for the Stormers was 35,412 which would be difficult when SARU themselves list the fixture against the Rebels as having an attendance of <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.sarugby.net/component/match_centre/?view=match&id=136644&leagueid=2174&homeid=23224&awayid=23344'>23,137</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Care to address this marked mathematical discrepancy?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555175" data-time="1454115884">
<div>
<p><strong>What if I can't be arsed? </strong></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyway, I just posted a link about the Stormers' average attendances, because I took the trouble to google those particular stats so the link was easy to find.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Then don't make the claim in the first place. Thats pretty simple isn't it? If you say the 2011 rwc was widely regarded as the worst ever but when asked to back it up all you can talk about is Paul Ackfords jetlag you look like a troll, noone treats a troll with respect. They don't deserve any.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555175" data-time="1454115884"><p>What if I can't be arsed? <br><br>
Anyway, I just posted a link about the Stormers' average attendances, because I took the trouble to google those particular stats so the link was easy to find.</p></blockquote>
Then your claim is void and will be disregarded by everyone. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="555176" data-time="1454116015">
<div>
<p>You mean a forum is the place to simply make shit up and ignore that you've been corrected? Where factual accuracy means nothing? I'm sure you take the same approach when people take a guess at your IQ or general competence at daily tasks normal people execute without difficulty?<br>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Unfortunately your source states the lowest home crowd figure for the Stormers was 35,412 which would be difficult when SARU themselves list the fixture against the Rebels as having an attendance of <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.sarugby.net/component/match_centre/?view=match&id=136644&leagueid=2174&homeid=23224&awayid=23344'>23,137</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Care to address this marked mathematical discrepancy?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Oh dear.</p>
