The Silver Fern

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="609973" data-time="1472336851">
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Hurricane I'm calling bullshit on any Ferner saying our midfield is settled or close to being the finished product without it being pointed out they are wrong by the rest of us .
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Is Sam Cane the finished product? Is he is as good as he will end up being? Or is he still on a learning curve? I saw some people making points like that last night but a vocal 1% not conceeding any ground about him and insisting he is the best open side in the world already despite this being his first year as a regular starter.
 
I am generalising from the Cane discussion to a potential discussion on the midfield.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="609926" data-time="1472331469">
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Somewhat unnecessary and I'd suggest childish quip Hurricane (in line with a post by M4L above). I think you could find plenty of Ferners who would agree that our midfielders aren't there yet ...
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99% of the Ferners would make that concession. A vocal 1% would take offence and get abusive. Someone else can put themselves out there next time. My whole goal for my participation on this web site was just to make the odd interesting comment here and there, I don't really want to be in the spot light so will take some learnings away from this. That is all my post was meant to mean rather than being shot at the Fern. For the record I thought that was his (Malakai's) best night in a black jersey by some distance last night.
 
@Unco - I don't really care you had a crack at me. I am not sitting at home throwing darts at a picture with your avatar on it. To be honest on a scale of 1 to 10 it was a 7. I have had way worse said to me and I am sure everyone has. If you come online you risk someone swearing at you. Just seems to be how it works. So yeah - if you don't want to apologise even though in my view you were OTT that is your call. I won't be crying into my beer over the incident. Let's all move on. Who really cares. This is not the biggest incident the Silver Fern has ever seen or will see. Let's end the autopsy. Yes if you had said "You are out of your mind". I probably would have laughed.
 
For my part I have noted down don't say "any day" in case that helps.
 
Thanks

hurricane

Cooper is starting to play with a bit of confidence.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="609521" data-time="1472278032">
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That's the way it is but not the way it should be. I will try to like a well reasoned post I disagree with more than a poorly reasoned post I agree with. It's only internet points but still. "You're out of your fucking mind" adds nothing to a conversation and I think it was that comment and others which lead to increasingly defensive posts from Hurricane (which didn't add anything to the conversation either).
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I was also told that if I didn't like being sworn at that I should join stuff.co.nz's comment section instead because being sworn at was par for the course apparently around here for putting forward a dissenting opinion. That was an off putting message as well.
 
The only point I would like to close on is that Hoopah and Pocock are world class number 7s and it should be "normal" on discussion forums to compare world class players against each other. It was not like I was comparing and contrasting Sam Cane with the team captain of Horowhenua. Yet the reaction I was given was as if I had done that by 2-3 posters. 
 
I will probably be careful before I suggest that an All Black is not the best in the world in his position on this web site in the future. Which is a shame as some people made some very good rejoinders to my position such as the Baron's post and about 10-20 other people who responded in a normal tone.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="609404" data-time="1472259375">
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What a childish response. A 'fine defender' as if he isn't excellent. As if his frame prevents him from playing Test level rugby, he's not a midget ffs. You might have an Ardie poster in your bedroom, but your response is unbelievably puerile and detracts from whatever other points you may make.
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I think this is a bit unfair. I meant my final sentences about Cane purely as positives. :(
 
Anyway - starting to get pumped now about tonight. Quade Cooper starting at 1st 5 which promises something will happen. And we all get to watch Sam Cane to see how many turn overs/penalties/thumping tackles he delivers. I have $20 on the ABs to win this by 30 points.
 
Fire up Black!

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609379" data-time="1472253426">
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If you wanted us to shake hands and move on, you'd walk back some of the rubbish you said on the last page, not post a smart ass edit of my post. Hell, if you really didn't want things to go south, you could've started digging yourself out of your hole the minute you were called out but instead, all you did is dig yourself in deeper with more rubbish.
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@Unco - IF digging myself further in includes posting stats that claim Cane is not as good as Pocock and Hoopah then I am not sure what to say. I am allowed to defend my position, you are allowed to debate my position and fervantly disagree with it. I reckon my position had merit enough not to be dismissed out of hand. Anyway I need to move on from this now, I think we have gone forth and back enough. I have to clean the house thoroughly and it will take a while. You know how it is on a weekend.
 
@everyone else.
One point I will confess to, and this addresses something Booboo threw at me. I am in the camp that Savea is a better 7 than Cane. I think Cane is the starting 7 as he is the incumbent player and we are very reluctant, with good reasons, to mess with a winning formula. If Savea was our starting 7 I might be more defensive of him in match ups against 7s from other teams in the world. I am particularly down on Cane for two reasons:
1) He is not aggressive at the ruck area from a competing for the ball perspective
2) His discipline is extremely juvenile at times, more so in Super Rugby perhaps. But yes as another poster said, this may be a growing phase and he may move on.
That said I grant that he is a fine defender and plays to the full capacity that his frame allows him to. I also acknowledged that in no way does he let his team mates down in the All Blacks and I do believe he adds value to the team.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609362" data-time="1472251534">
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That's your best response? How old are you? 10?
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Better than the foul langauage you come up with. Would you have preferred if I had sworn back at you. Is that the level of discourse you understand and respect?
 
Anyway - my response was designed to get a laugh out of you, and eventually get us to shake hands and move on. 
 
I do think you were OTT with your initial response, but perhaps I should call this quits and move on as a reconciliation does not appear likely.
 
Good luck to you.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609300" data-time="1472218245">
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I apologise for swearing at you - I realise that was a bit OTT, Your comment just caught me off guard especially after last saturday. No, I don't think I rate every New Zealand player as being the best in the world in his position by default just because he wears a black jersey, well maybe I do now that I stop to think about it, but they are the best team in the world for a reason.
 
Here is my more reasonable response 
 
Personally, I actually like Pocock (not a fan of Hoopah though) but I think if he were a NZ player, he'd probably be in the same weird position Todd's been in for the last few years. He's a very good player but doesn't have the game we expect from our opensides these days. Out and out fetchers just aren't as valued here as they are in Aus, especially when that comes at the cost of ball running skills. And yeah, you can point to Franks but he's a fucking prop, when he's not in scrums, his job is to hit rucks and he does it well.
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Fixed your post for you...

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="609276" data-time="1472209197">That old chestnut is not going to cut it. You've made the call, back it up. So far it's an opinion on the future, and fuck all else. In what ways are pooper both better than cane? How are their backups all better than savea and todd?</blockquote> You won't like the source as it is green and gold - but the stats analysis is clear - Cane lagged behind the others in most dimensions from a stats point of view (turnovers, penalties conceeded etc) in the Super Rugby Comp this year <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/by-the-numbers-wallaby-openside/'>http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/by-the-numbers-wallaby-openside/</a>

hurricane

Well whatever. At least I don't rate players just because they wear a black jersey. Cane is destined to be a journeyman player at best. Pocock in his prime was being discussed as being on par with an ageing McCaw. Both Hoopah and Pocock are distinctly better players than Cane is. Cane just happens to be on the winning team so somehow that makes him better. Anyway I am majorly outnumbered and have an unpopular opinion and you guys aren't even debating me you are just firing pot shots so yeah...I don't think on retrospect it is a wise thing to come on to a web site for NZ fans and tell them a player in the AB team isn't number one in the world in his position.

hurricane

Cane won't even be the starting AB number 7 two years from now. His decision making as evidenced in silly penalties he takes in super rugby alone indicate he is not a disciplined player.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609268" data-time="1472207784">You're out of your fucking mind.</blockquote> Computer says no.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="609264" data-time="1472206152">Nah, I think that is rubbish and clouded by your man crush on that dreadlocked Rebel, we've always had as much depth at 7 as the Wallabies, just that our number 1 was so far ahead of the pack and they tend to give all of theirs a test jumper at some time or another. Considering we tend to convert 6s to 8 these days I highly doubt 8 is our favoured position.</blockquote> I think you are completely underselling Reid. He is a quality number 7. McMahon is also "isn't bad". That gives Australia 4 International quality number 7s. Hooper, Pocock, Reid, McMahon not to mention Gill isn't bad either and by memory it was gill who had the most turnovers out of Australia's number 7s last year. Who does New Zealand have - Cane? I would have Hooper and Pocock ahead of him anyday. Behind Cane we have Savea who is very good I guess, but then who Matt Todd...Major LOL. I distinctly remember a super match towards the end where a wellington player ran straight over the top of him and Todd looked like chump.

hurricane

Thanks for that NTA. Australia seem to have the best depth in the number 7 shirt in the world and always seem to have as far back as I can remember. I think I have chatted with a few aussie fans before about it and they told me that in high school rugby it is a very coveted playing position. While in NZ everyone aspires to be a number 10 or a number 8. I do hope that Australian rugby finds a spring in its step. I think all of the Wallabies are very humble blokes and they are a good advertisement for their country.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="609218" data-time="1472201525">It's a low percentage, but some are quite good</blockquote> What is the Rebels player Jordie Reid's background, was he a local product? I have a man crush on him and wish he was in the AB wider training group and don't know why he isn't in the Australian squad as a back up player.

hurricane

Man I hope this comes to pass. Very few of the Force players are truly super rugby standard and the 6-7 out of their whole squad who are would be welcome additions at other teams in Australia. I think if the other franchises can become better by absorbing those players, then they will win more games and hopefully revenues will go up. Will cross my fingers this comes to pass. This will do good things for Aussie Rugby. I am less fussed about SA having so many teams. But yeah the Kings weren't much chop last season.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="BartMan" data-cid="608979" data-time="1472120945">I think we'll be looking at 35-15.</blockquote> In 2014 we won 51-20. I am thinking something of that nature.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="608969" data-time="1472118577">I cant believe im saying this , But im a bit concerned for Australian rugby to be honest , years ago when they were a powerhouse I wouldve thought I would be celebrating this , but for the benefit of international rugby , im not so sure this is good thing if we keep flogging them</blockquote> I will going ABs by 13+ on the TAB and I probably won't even get good odds for my bet. This could be a record breaking hiding on the weekend.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="BartMan" data-cid="608966" data-time="1472117982">WEll at this stage I think the Aussies are going backwards. But we'll see when they play the Boers and the Argies.</blockquote> I don't think they are going backwards they are just static and havn't improved. I do think they will go backwards this week at a rate of knots with Quade being on the field...but then he will be dropped and sent back to inner sanctum of rugby purgatory where he belongs. England have stepped up a level and had they been that good at the world cup would have made the final and with a home crowd may have even knocked us off. Please note the detail, "with a home crowd", which is an immense advantage in a world cup final. I think other teams have just moved forward this year. New Zealand are a mystery to me. Their whole performance in this year's Super XV competition was out of the box. 4 teams, the Saders, Chiefs, Canes, and Landers played test match standard rugby all year and would beat most international teams in the world not named England. I don't know why we blossomed this year. But it happened. Somehow New Zealand rugby is going through a purple patch. Maybe it is just because Barrett, Lima, and Cruden are entering their prime years. Or maybe the all blacks who won the world cup last year grew in confidence and it effected their provincial team mates. Whatever the reason the ABs are better.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="608963" data-time="1472117738">Many kiwis rated deans the best coach going around , then he coached the wallabies , Its always easier when you have the best players , that is for sure .</blockquote> Yeah, well said, this is essentially what I was trying to say with my long winded post.

The Silver Fern

hurricane

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