B&I Lions 2017
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@Rapido There is a view that the itinerary is a big deal though, regardless of who plays on Sat. I don't know how far S&C has advanced to help them deal with it, but a number of the players look off the pace already. Just taking the 10's for example, Sexton basically played his way off the test side with his shocker in a league semi-final last week. Bigger has been in poor form and his team were pretty much obliterated in the final games of the league. That leaves Farrell, which is not a good place to be IMO.
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Yes Manawatu will be much better than 2005. But every other first division province is way weaker than 12 years ago.
2005 was a bit of an NPC watershed year, the 'end'.
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@wowrp1 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Rapido There is a view that the itinerary is a big deal though, regardless of who plays on Sat. I don't know how far S&C has advanced to help them deal with it, but a number of the players look off the pace already. Just taking the 10's for example, Sexton basically played his way off the test side with his shocker in a league semi-final last week. Bigger has been in poor form and his team were pretty much obliterated in the final games of the league. That leaves Farrell, which is not a good place to be IMO.
So they all had a week off?
This Saturday will be a breeze. The tour proper starts on Wednesday. And I think it could go either way. The Lions could totally ace this, or they could wobble at their first hard game due to lack of cohesion, and then the pressure could pile up.
It's going to be fascinating, I reckon they have 1 hard game too many (the first midweek match). Other than that 'the itinerary' thing is a bit overblown.
Maybe, not sure, ask me in a month .... I reckon this Lions team will be good.
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Thinking about how the loss of Dallaglio in 2005 took out a guy that was key to the touring group (and, of course the near death of BOD) made me wonder who, if any, the equivalent players are this time.
@taniwharugby made a comment that they don't have any talismanic players this time and he is probably right.
Billy V has gone already but he was more a big part of the team plan than a 'leader' or guy the others will look to.
Farrell? I don't know how respected he is among the non England teams and I also think he provides a quandary for Gatland in that he is either the 10 or a reserve as he doesn't play Warrenball and may not be able to play the same 12 role he does for England where he controls a game from further away. -
Guys, your own coach has had same misgivings about the schedule:
NEW ZEALAND COACH Steve Hansen is the latest detractor of the Lions’ scheduling of their tour down under.
The All Blacks coach does not believe the Lions have afforded themselves enough time to acclimatise before the first of 10 games against the Provincial Barbarians in Whangarei on Saturday.
Many critics of the Lions’ plans believe they are playing too many warm-up matches – Warren Gatland’s men play six times before meeting the All Blacks in Auckland on June 24.
The Lions departed London on Monday and will arrive on Wednesday, New Zealand time. Hansen believes they could be undercooked for their first contest as a result.
“You’d want to be there a week at the minimum [ahead of the first game],” he told The Times.
“It’s nicer to be longer than that. When we tour we have total control over when we leave the country.
“If most of them are not playing, what’s stopping them getting on a plane now with most of the squad, for example?
“The option you’ve got is for the sake of the team. We’ll get over there and we’ll see [the rest of] you when you get here.
“What they are asking them to do is pretty difficult, get here Wednesday, play Saturday.”
While the physical challenge goes without saying on the tour, much focus has been placed on the kicking battle. -
@Frye said in B&I Lions 2017:
Fair point. Could have had most of the squad in NZ this weekend just gone.
Guess they had important things to do together like a photo shoot of everyone about to get on the plane.
..which is dictated by the marketing team that is the Lions organisation, not the choice of the players or the coaches.
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Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
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@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
You mean besides admitting - recently - that he wasn't the right coach for the tour?
Sir Clive Woodward reveals what went wrong for Lions during NZ tour of 2005
Woodward says that he lost his ruthless streak when the Lions travelled to the southern hemisphere 12 years ago
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
You mean besides admitting - recently - that he wasn't the right coach for the tour?
Sir Clive Woodward reveals what went wrong for Lions during NZ tour of 2005
Woodward says that he lost his ruthless streak when the Lions travelled to the southern hemisphere 12 years ago
Hardly an admission of wrong selections, wrong tour organisation, etc etc (as in the article I referenced).
You don't lose a series 3-0 because one non-English player doesn't toe the party line.
Playing Jones at 10 and Wilkinson at 12 when they never trained together would be a good start.
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@wowrp1 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Frye said in B&I Lions 2017:
Fair point. Could have had most of the squad in NZ this weekend just gone.
Guess they had important things to do together like a photo shoot of everyone about to get on the plane.
..which is dictated by the marketing team that is the Lions organisation, not the choice of the players or the coaches.
Poppycock!
Gatland asked for extra players and got them. If he wanted to arrive earlier I'm sure he could have asked.
I think the issue was more to do with the domestic season and an expectation of having less players available than he actually did. He probably thought it wasn't worth it.
In retrospect he could have come earlier. -
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@wowrp1 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Frye said in B&I Lions 2017:
Fair point. Could have had most of the squad in NZ this weekend just gone.
Guess they had important things to do together like a photo shoot of everyone about to get on the plane.
..which is dictated by the marketing team that is the Lions organisation, not the choice of the players or the coaches.
Poppycock!
Gatland asked for extra players and got them. If he wanted to arrive earlier I'm sure he could have asked.
I think the issue was more to do with the domestic season and an expectation of having less players available than he actually did. He probably thought it wasn't worth it.
In retrospect he could have come earlier.Precisely. . Retrospect and Hindsight are comfortable bed-fellows. Hansen's on a bit of wind-up being all clever and wise after the fact.
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I get it.. you guys don't want to hear any NH view that doesn't tie in with your own. No problem.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@wowrp1 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Frye said in B&I Lions 2017:
Fair point. Could have had most of the squad in NZ this weekend just gone.
Guess they had important things to do together like a photo shoot of everyone about to get on the plane.
..which is dictated by the marketing team that is the Lions organisation, not the choice of the players or the coaches.
Poppycock!
Gatland asked for extra players and got them. If he wanted to arrive earlier I'm sure he could have asked.
I think the issue was more to do with the domestic season and an expectation of having less players available than he actually did. He probably thought it wasn't worth it.
In retrospect he could have come earlier.Precisely. . Retrospect and Hindsight are comfortable bed-fellows. Hansen's on a bit of wind-up being all clever and wise after the fact.
Of course he is. Gatland is in for far more sly comments than that, especially if he starts throwing some of his own.
The easiest stone to throw is that Gatland should know all about coping with midweek matches given that he was a career dirt-tracker himself.
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@wowrp1 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Frye said in B&I Lions 2017:
Fair point. Could have had most of the squad in NZ this weekend just gone.
Guess they had important things to do together like a photo shoot of everyone about to get on the plane.
..which is dictated by the marketing team that is the Lions organisation, not the choice of the players or the coaches.
Poppycock!
Gatland asked for extra players and got them. If he wanted to arrive earlier I'm sure he could have asked.
I think the issue was more to do with the domestic season and an expectation of having less players available than he actually did. He probably thought it wasn't worth it.
In retrospect he could have come earlier.Precisely. . Retrospect and Hindsight are comfortable bed-fellows. Hansen's on a bit of wind-up being all clever and wise after the fact.
Of course he is. Gatland is in for far more sly comments than that, especially if he starts throwing some of his own.
The easiest stone to throw is that Gatland should know all about coping with midweek matches given that he was a career dirt-tracker himself.
Ooh - I like that one.
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@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
You mean besides admitting - recently - that he wasn't the right coach for the tour?
Sir Clive Woodward reveals what went wrong for Lions during NZ tour of 2005
Woodward says that he lost his ruthless streak when the Lions travelled to the southern hemisphere 12 years ago
Hardly an admission of wrong selections, wrong tour organisation, etc etc (as in the article I referenced).
You don't lose a series 3-0 because one non-English player doesn't toe the party line.
Playing Jones at 10 and Wilkinson at 12 when they never trained together would be a good start.
I was more following the premise that if he now admits he shouldn't have been on the tour as coach, well all the shit flows downhill from there......
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@Guest said in B&I Lions 2017:
I get it.. you guys don't want to hear any NH view that doesn't tie in with your own. No problem.
I love hearing NH views that tie in with my own. Unfortunately, yours doesn't. If you've got something to say, get a screen name and join in.
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@Guest said in B&I Lions 2017:
I get it.. you guys don't want to hear any NH view that doesn't tie in with your own. No problem.
More than happy to read other views. However, if I have a different opinion I will say so. That's how this thing works.
If everyone just posted what they thought and no one debated it the forum would be pointless.
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@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
What a fascinating article - I look forward to hearing the radio production, thanks for sharing.
Seemingly every few years when he is asked about this he has a different take on how we would have done it differently - last time it was base the team in Australia and fly over for the tests!
The most curious thing in the article is how Woodward bemoans what an impossible task it is to convene the Lions against a NZ side that play year in year out (among a litany of other hurdles he lists).
Woodward was appointed Lions coach in February 2004. Henry was appointed All Blacks coach December 2003. Looking at the prospects for those roles come Lions tour I don't think one had a clear advantage. Ted essentially had one season to prepare for the Lions all while picking up the pieces from another RWC loss, changing captains and capping 11+ players etc. Honestly most of the rebuilding was done on the EOYT when McCaw returned, Carter moved to 10, Mehrts and Marshall moved on etc.
There were also massive advantages for Woodward trying to bringing three nations together over a series of warm up fixtures vs bringing five franchises together with one test against Fiji. The Lions squad was also significantly more experienced at test level as they had four nations to cap players and we only had two! The ABs also had untried key combinations going into that series too, Marshall and Carter had played 4 minutes against Fiji together at test level and hardly at all at Super level.
History has not been kind to Woodward.
