B&I Lions 2017
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
So you think that Lions tours should be watered down because the NH unions have failed to have control of their own game?
It's their bed, they made it.
The rugby up here is hardly as taxing as equating it with a Super/test/NPC schedule. It's just long.I think its probably more taxing for the forwards as its a grind with a lot of scrums etc. Its a never ending series of scrums & mauls on shithouse grounds, in the rain. And the HC is pretty good standard. 6 Nations is pretty poor. But worst, if a top player needs a rest he doesn't get one as his club need him. The ABs have stretched a lot of guys careers & ensured their availability at the business end by managing their workload.
I don't think NZ should water it down, its a once in 12 years chance to make a shitton of cash, we should milk it for all its worth. The blame lies 100% with the NH. But the way its going we do run the risk of killing the golden goose. This could easily be the last lions tour.
Ideally the 4 nations would get their house in order & pull their players from the clubs. They won't, so what should be the best rugby of the year will be a bit shit. It'll be good to stuff them 3-0 & then take them for 4 of the other games, but we run the risk of the Lions going the way of the Welsh or even, based on this year, the Wobblies..
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@gollum said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
So you think that Lions tours should be watered down because the NH unions have failed to have control of their own game?
It's their bed, they made it.
The rugby up here is hardly as taxing as equating it with a Super/test/NPC schedule. It's just long.I think its probably more taxing for the forwards as its a grind with a lot of scrums etc. Its a never ending series of scrums & mauls on shithouse grounds, in the rain. And the HC is pretty good standard. 6 Nations is pretty poor. But worst, if a top player needs a rest he doesn't get one as his club need him. The ABs have stretched a lot of guys careers & ensured their availability at the business end by managing their workload.
I don't think NZ should water it down, its a once in 12 years chance to make a shitton of cash, we should milk it for all its worth. The blame lies 100% with the NH. But the way its going we do run the risk of killing the golden goose. This could easily be the last lions tour.
Ideally the 4 nations would get their house in order & pull their players from the clubs. They won't, so what should be the best rugby of the year will be a bit shit. It'll be good to stuff them 3-0 & then take them for 4 of the other games, but we run the risk of the Lions going the way of the Welsh or even, based on this year, the Wobblies..
where are you living with that description of the NH game? It's almost humorous.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
where are you living with that description of the NH game? It's almost humorous.
I like to stick to a sterotype & beat it to death.
If I'd posted that Jimmy Gopperth had the Wasps backline purring like a well oiled machine & Aaron Mauger had reinvented Leicester there'd have been a 20 page thread re how shit Gopperth was - and therefore UK rugby must be for him to look good. And how Mauger destroyed the Saders.
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Yay, the Lions are coming.
Something that only comes around once every 12 years and a throw back to the good old days of mid week games, building towards a 3 test series.Yet, straight of the bat people are complaining about the schedule aka. getting excuses ready for when the Lions get beat...
FFS, stop being such dour fluffybunnies, embrace and enjoy it for what it is.
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@Gunner said in B&I Lions 2017:
Yay, the Lions are coming.
Something that only comes around once every 12 years and a throw back to the good old days of mid week games, building towards a 3 test series.Yet, straight of the bat people are complaining about the schedule aka. getting excuses ready for when the Lions get beat...
FFS, stop being such dour fluffybunnies, embrace and enjoy it for what it is.
The complaining about the tour schedule started when it was published over a year ago. And it's coming from both directions. As sure as shit, there'll be an article in one of the NZ media in about three months from now or sooner saying the NH has fucked up again because they've just realised that their league finals won't finish until May 27 next year and a second string will be put out for the first couple of matches.
To which the only response is - no shit, Sherlock!
I have no idea why the Lions administrators agreed to have ten matches. The NZRU must be thrilled to have negotiated it since they get the most money from the whole tour and every additional match is more money in their till.
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@gollum said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
where are you living with that description of the NH game? It's almost humorous.
I like to stick to a sterotype & beat it to death.
If I'd posted that Jimmy Gopperth had the Wasps backline purring like a well oiled machine & Aaron Mauger had reinvented Leicester there'd have been a 20 page thread re how shit Gopperth was - and therefore UK rugby must be for him to look good. And how Mauger destroyed the Saders.
Good point. Keep going with the stereotype of English rugby. I'm lovin' it. 😈
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@Pot-Hale Jimmy Gopperth is still playing?
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@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
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@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
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@Pot-Hale yea look, i know the Celts are in a constant struggle for funds and involvement, but nothing much seems to change.
Yes, it seems strange to have the first game 5 days after the final, but if not then, when? The Lions tour is always (in the pro era) in June. Every 4 years allowances could be made by BOTH sides to fit. But no one is going to budge. And that's probably the reality of a TV dominated game to be honest.
I love how you keep implying it's Tew who is squeezing this for all it's worth, like this whole thing is one sided. If the Lions didn't want to play that other game, I'm pretty sure Steve would have been told to fuck off.
A global season is a pipe dream i think, as it's not going to work enough for anyone to say yes. As it is everyone seems to play for 9 months at least, probably closer to 10 with pre-season fixtures. My fear for a global season is we head down the soccer path (that England and France have been pushing for since 1995) where clubs play when ever, but internationals are played on designated weekends all over the world. This would be the death of NZ rugby, probably Aus as well to be honest. Our entire system is geared in a completely different way.
Bu that's another point. What i am here to say it, the Lions is the pinnacle, not the poxy finals of some shit 2nd (3rd really) tier comp. Send the good players, let the ressies play the GF, it'll be good for them. We're even letting them play All Blacks mid-week this time, revel in the privilege.
Only one team may win here (actually we've had 3 first-time winners in 3 years in Super rugby!) but the only teams that win up North are the Club owners.
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@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale yea look, i know the Celts are in a constant struggle for funds and involvement, but nothing much seems to change.
Yes, it seems strange to have the first game 5 days after the final, but if not then, when? The Lions tour is always (in the pro era) in June. Every 4 years allowances could be made by BOTH sides to fit. But no one is going to budge. And that's probably the reality of a TV dominated game to be honest.
I love how you keep implying it's Tew who is squeezing this for all it's worth, like this whole thing is one sided. If the Lions didn't want to play that other game, I'm pretty sure Steve would have been told to fuck off.
A global season is a pipe dream i think, as it's not going to work enough for anyone to say yes. As it is everyone seems to play for 9 months at least, probably closer to 10 with pre-season fixtures. My fear for a global season is we head down the soccer path (that England and France have been pushing for since 1995) where clubs play when ever, but internationals are played on designated weekends all over the world. This would be the death of NZ rugby, probably Aus as well to be honest. Our entire system is geared in a completely different way.
Bu that's another point. What i am here to say it, the Lions is the pinnacle, not the poxy finals of some shit 2nd (3rd really) tier comp. Send the good players, let the ressies play the GF, it'll be good for them. We're even letting them play All Blacks mid-week this time, revel in the privilege.
Only one team may win here (actually we've had 3 first-time winners in 3 years in Super rugby!) but the only teams that win up North are the Club owners.
Yeah you're right on the Tew point - but it was only a response to the "it's all the NH's fault"
John Feehan, the Lions CEO, said today that 10 matches is now probably the minimum the Lions need in order to prepare for the test matches properly.I think there will be changes to the global season structure. Enough people are now saying they want it to happen. The four PRO12 unions could find common cause with some of the SANZAAR unions in bringing through some changes, particularly now that the voting structure in World Rugby has changed with the power of 8 foundation unions diluted somewhat with more voices around the table and more votes.
All of the NH clubs/leagues want separation of the club and international game, so tests being played on dedicated weekends would not be a runner, nor even a proposal to the best of my knowledge.
The sharing of revenue is going to be a big issue too. For the unions that make bugger all from the club game (PRO12), divvying up their test revenue would be a tough pill to swallow unless there is some rebalancing across other commercial aspects of the game.
Lastly, I was wrong about the first match being 5 days after the finals - it's 7 days. So that's all right then. The Lions should win the entire series now......
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@Pot-Hale I'm not sure i am for the carving up of test match revenue to be honest (despite the head of my union wanting to be in on it). I guess now is the time for him to push it while we are a big draw card, but when i look at it from the point of view of other small unions, it's a tough thing to push. Especially as it could be one-sided thanks to some of our small stadiums.
It again comes back to the spectre of weak June touring sides getting pumped, and it allegedly limiting our commercial prospects (seriously, fuck professional rugby).
A change in the voting system for World Rugby is a must, an absolute must. But it won't happen
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@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale I'm not sure i am for the carving up of test match revenue to be honest (despite the head of my union wanting to be in on it). I guess now is the time for him to push it while we are a big draw card, but when i look at it from the point of view of other small unions, it's a tough thing to push. Especially as it could be one-sided thanks to some of our small stadiums.
It again comes back to the spectre of weak June touring sides getting pumped, and it allegedly limiting our commercial prospects (seriously, fuck professional rugby).
A change in the voting system for World Rugby is a must, an absolute must. But it won't happen
On the revenue sharing, I think the NH unions could assist more with the marketing of some of the games in the SH. Yes some of the stadia are smaller, particularly if a union like NZ want to move it around from Eden Park to Forsyth Barr to Wellington, etc. One solution may be to insist on a minimum stadium size for test matches involving revenue sharing. That size would have to be set at around the 50k mark, I think. Lansdowne is only 51k. Ticketing and marketing also need to be improved. And there probably should be shared opportunities for shifting of merchandising. The Irl v NZ match in Chicago in November is a good example where both teams can tap into the local market on different bases and appeal - both should make money from the venture.
You also have to consider the other 2 markets in Australia and South Africa. Neither England or Ireland were "pumped", but the crowds weren't exceptional either. Marketing and promotion of these tests needs to be improved. And if they continue to be promoted in some quarters as quasi-friendly, warm up matches for the real thing - Rugby Championship, then I'm not surprised the crowds aren't turning up.
The World Rugby voting structure has changed - this year. Moving from 28 to 40 voting members:
8 foundation unions remain with 2 votes each
Now, Argentina, Italy and Canada have two votes each as well.
Georgia, Romania and US now have a voting seat each at the table, joining Japan.
Regional associations have been given an extra vote each - 6 x 2 votes. -
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
Lastly, I was wrong about the first match being 5 days after the finals - it's 7 days. So that's all right then. The Lions should win the entire series now......
The 1st test on recent tours to NZ by England, France and Wales have all been affected by player unavailability due to NH finals (in Eng and France mainly) so it's not a recent problem, nor is it solely restricted to a Lions tour.
BTW, the team the LIons play first up is going to be the weakest team (by far) on the tour schedule. If the Lions lose that game they might as well head back to the airport.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
This just isn't true. The 2013 Lions Tour was 10 games. The 2009 Lions Tour was 10 games. Tours to Australia have generally been a game or two shorter (compare 2001 with 2005 or 1997). So it has absolutely nothing to do with Tew and Co. This is just how long Lions Tours are. The 2013 tour started on 1 June. The 2017 tour will start on 3 June. On 3 June, the Lions will play the NZ Barbarians which will have no Super Rugby players as Super Rugby will still be going that weekend.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale I'm not sure i am for the carving up of test match revenue to be honest (despite the head of my union wanting to be in on it). I guess now is the time for him to push it while we are a big draw card, but when i look at it from the point of view of other small unions, it's a tough thing to push. Especially as it could be one-sided thanks to some of our small stadiums.
It again comes back to the spectre of weak June touring sides getting pumped, and it allegedly limiting our commercial prospects (seriously, fuck professional rugby).
A change in the voting system for World Rugby is a must, an absolute must. But it won't happen
On the revenue sharing, I think the NH unions could assist more with the marketing of some of the games in the SH. Yes some of the stadia are smaller, particularly if a union like NZ want to move it around from Eden Park to Forsyth Barr to Wellington, etc. One solution may be to insist on a minimum stadium size for test matches involving revenue sharing. That size would have to be set at around the 50k mark, I think. Lansdowne is only 51k. Ticketing and marketing also need to be improved. And there probably should be shared opportunities for shifting of merchandising. The Irl v NZ match in Chicago in November is a good example where both teams can tap into the local market on different bases and appeal - both should make money from the venture.
You also have to consider the other 2 markets in Australia and South Africa. Neither England or Ireland were "pumped", but the crowds weren't exceptional either. Marketing and promotion of these tests needs to be improved. And if they continue to be promoted in some quarters as quasi-friendly, warm up matches for the real thing - Rugby Championship, then I'm not surprised the crowds aren't turning up.
The World Rugby voting structure has changed - this year. Moving from 28 to 40 voting members:
8 foundation unions remain with 2 votes each
Now, Argentina, Italy and Canada have two votes each as well.
Georgia, Romania and US now have a voting seat each at the table, joining Japan.
Regional associations have been given an extra vote each - 6 x 2 votes.The fuck did Canada do to get two votes? Japan deserves it far more, at least they've got a professional comp and Super team.
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Jamie Cudmore asked them nicely....
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@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
This just isn't true. The 2013 Lions Tour was 10 games. The 2009 Lions Tour was 10 games. Tours to Australia have generally been a game or two shorter (compare 2001 with 2005 or 1997). So it has absolutely nothing to do with Tew and Co. This is just how long Lions Tours are. The 2013 tour started on 1 June. The 2017 tour will start on 3 June. On 3 June, the Lions will play the NZ Barbarians which will have no Super Rugby players as Super Rugby will still be going that weekend.
You mean Super Rugby will still be playing whilst the Lions are touring? Outrageous - why can't they shift the season back, etc, etc,,etc?
Yes I know that some previous tours had 10 matches. And the Lions keep doing the same thing, and the host union keeps accepting it. And then we get faux outrage from the host union and their media every time it happens as if it's just happening for the first time and no one knew about this beforehand.
Ditto for the 3 test series. Tew & Co within SANZAR wanted to have three test tours because the NH teams being sent were second string - according to them - and they wanted a series that would draw greater crowds, create excitement, be more competitive, etc. Hence why we got the 2012-2019 test series schedule. So far the NZ ledger reads 12-0. I'd be interested to know if revenue improved at all as a result.
Now SANZAAR wants the June tests moved to July because the NH unions are messing up the Super Rugby season.
The global season needs fixing - pronto.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale you know what? it is your (NH rugby) fault. Move the 6N? fuck that! Shorten/adjust the club season? No, it makes all the money!
Every time this global season shit comes up (and this is linked to it) the Northern Unions and their fans basically say "fuck off, you change".
We have one decent tradition left in rugby, and you fluffybunnies want to shorten it so you can play 600 club games a season. I'm pretty sure you would only be happy with a 3 week, 3 test tour. It's not just the money to us down here, it's a fucking occasion, one that is eagerly looked forward to for 12 years.
And your rugby is shit.
Lovely rant. Except it's not an accurate picture of what's actually occurring in NH rugby. There is more than one union besides English rugby and its club season.
A bit of research on facts would show you that the 6N unions are split on moving the 6N, some want to move it 3 weeks, others want to move it to April/May as a finale to the season and then lead straight into June tests. Others want it to stay where it is. It is the Six Nations that makes money, followed by November Internationals.
The club game makes money in England and France. It makes sweet fuck all in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy. Super Rugby makes 100x times more than what the PRO12 does. To try and make it more valuable, the PRO12 is planning to shorten their club season by creating a conference league and expanding it to include teams from US, Europe. They want to have the club season (league and Euro cups) finish by end of March.
And yes, it isn't just about the whole of NH rugby changing to suit SH schedules. Fuck that! There's more of us. So you'd (SH rugby) better be willing to make some compromises too - either individually or collectively.
And whilst I agree with you that it is an occasion, I'm simply saying that putting in a match to play 5 days after the league finals are held, when everyone involved (both SH and NH unions ) knew in advance that it was going to be compromised is just plain stupid, and it shortchanges the fans (and the players). 9 matches would still be a longer Lions tour than there has been for quite some time. But no, Tew & Co want to squeeze the last drop out of the Lions because it's likely this will be the last time the Lions will tour like this.
And your rugby is shit. The same team keep winning.
This just isn't true. The 2013 Lions Tour was 10 games. The 2009 Lions Tour was 10 games. Tours to Australia have generally been a game or two shorter (compare 2001 with 2005 or 1997). So it has absolutely nothing to do with Tew and Co. This is just how long Lions Tours are. The 2013 tour started on 1 June. The 2017 tour will start on 3 June. On 3 June, the Lions will play the NZ Barbarians which will have no Super Rugby players as Super Rugby will still be going that weekend.
You mean Super Rugby will still be playing whilst the Lions are touring? Outrageous - why can't they shift the season back, etc, etc,,etc?
Yes I know that some previous tours had 10 matches. And the Lions keep doing the same thing, and the host union keeps accepting it. And then we get faux outrage from the host union and their media every time it happens as if it's just happening for the first time and no one knew about this beforehand.
Ditto for the 3 test series. Tew & Co within SANZAR wanted to have three test tours because the NH teams being sent were second string - according to them - and they wanted a series that would draw greater crowds, create excitement, be more competitive, etc. Hence why we got the 2012-2019 test series schedule. So far the NZ ledger reads 12-0. I'd be interested to know if revenue improved at all as a result.
Now SANZAAR wants the June tests moved to July because the NH unions are messing up the Super Rugby season.
The global season needs fixing - pronto.
In 2013 Super Rugby games were played concurrently with the beginning of the Lions Tour. What is the faux outrage from the host union. I don't really understand your argument? You were earlier arguing that the series favoured us and it was a ten match series because of Steve Tew and now Tew and our media are outraged about it?
I think the justification for the 3 match series were that it would be a return to meaningful tours. A one off game just doesn't mean that much. I don't know about revenue but as a rugby fan, I prefer the tours.
As to the global season, I'm ambivalent. Stopping Super Rugby works fantastically well for me. I like that it breaks up the test season for us. If the NH wants to change their calendar they should have at it. I think our calendar is fine.
