RSA vs NZ, 1st Test, Durban

MN5

I do like gollums work on here so not gonna attack him like the Baron has but I wouldn't mind knowing who these ten mystical "Roger Twoses" are........let's get the NZ residency sorted quicksmart ! I do seem to recall in very recent memory the England team having three blokes ( Pietersen, Strauss and Trott ) in their top six who probably enjoyed snacking on biltong more than mushy peas which would indicate your point is rather flawed.
 
I have Sir Paddles book somewhere and off the top of my head I think he averaged 18 and 31 with ball and bat over ten seasons for Notts ( vs 22 and 27 in tests for NZ ). That is out of this fucken world.

NTA

Does anyone down this way broadcast county cricket? Last time I had pay TV they were doing the 40 over one day comp. I noted more than a few Aussies playing

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="610933" data-time="1472599252">
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I do like gollums work on here so not gonna attack him like the Baron has but I wouldn't mind knowing who these ten mystical "Roger Twoses" are........let's get the NZ residency sorted quicksmart ! I do seem to recall in very recent memory the England team having three blokes ( Pietersen, Strauss and Trott ) in their top six who probably enjoyed snacking on biltong more than mushy peas which would indicate your point is rather flawed.
 
I have Sir Paddles book somewhere and off the top of my head I think he averaged 18 and 31 with ball and bat over ten seasons for Notts ( vs 22 and 27 in tests for NZ ). That is out of this fucken world.
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You're missing the obvious - Ben Stokes couldn't even make the Canterbury team when he was in Christchurch and now he's their premier all rounder! :)

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610939" data-time="1472599876">
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You're missing the obvious - Ben Stokes couldn't even make the Canterbury team when he was in Christchurch and now he's their premier all rounder! :)
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He's another Flintoff, not another Beefy Botham. The aura far exceeds the averages......but I do see your point.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="610933" data-time="1472599252">
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I do like gollums work on here so not gonna attack him like the Baron has but I wouldn't mind knowing who these ten mystical "Roger Twoses" are........let's get the NZ residency sorted quicksmart ! I do seem to recall in very recent memory the England team having three blokes ( Pietersen, Strauss and Trott ) in their top six who probably enjoyed snacking on biltong more than mushy peas which would indicate your point is rather flawed.
 
I have Sir Paddles book somewhere and off the top of my head I think he averaged 18 and 31 with ball and bat over ten seasons for Notts ( vs 22 and 27 in tests for NZ ). That is out of this fucken world.
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fair enough.. but I have to ask... why the howls of derision? Why are you in such a frenzy about this?

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="610928" data-time="1472598506">
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Well bowled Chris.. i cant wait to see how Gollum plays that seamer at his head...
 
Probably scream at the umpire that you are trying to murder him.
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Gollum?
 
He won't even rub that little bruise. I'm expecting him to come back hard.
 
The question is whether I can draw him into a few wild hooks with assertions that Wagner and Craig will never play county cricket again - so that hopefully he'll pop one straight up. :)

MN5

What would a county cricketer of Patels ability earn for a season ?

Chris B.

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2301b8ae-f5bc-11e3-afd3-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz4IrfaXh00'>http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2301b8ae-f5bc-11e3-afd3-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz4IrfaXh00</a> Compare that with the average first-team salary in county cricket: about Â£50,000 a year. Of course, some elite overseas players, such as former South African Test captain Graeme Smith at Surrey, can make a reported Â£150,000, but they are extremely rare.

Donsteppa

People remember Patel's batting vs South Africa, but his bowling at test level - what you'd pick him for - was generally not that memorable. 
Not great, not bad, just nothing that's made me lose sleep wondering if we'd have won a match in recent times with Jeets instead of Craig/Santner/Vettori.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="610949" data-time="1472601891">
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fair enough.. but I have to ask... why the howls of derision? Why are you in such a frenzy about this?
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Did you reply to the correct quote here or am I missing something ?

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610913" data-time="1472595695">
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I think the selectors will only look at what Guptill has done since being brought back by Hesson. He's averaged about 30 and has a century and four 50s over a 15 month period.
 
Not great, but we've had plenty worse - they just didn't score enough runs to make your list.
 
What I think about Hesson's policy is that if he drops Guptill and brings in Raval, that's it for Guppy for at least 12 months (while Raval gets his turn) and maybe forever (e.g. Hamish Rutherford doesn't look like getting back) - perhaps a bit like Michael Bevan - Hesson might well be harsh enough that once you're on the test scrapheap you stay there. 
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Why shouldn't that be it for Guptill? The guy is 29 and has played 44 test matches. Since his return Guptill has averaged 18.7 against South Africa, England and Australia. I just can't see how he could possibly turn his test match career around. Has anyone ever played 6 years of sub standard test cricket and then suddenly became a good player?
 
I genuinely think that Bell, Papps or Fulton could average 21 against the top 5 teams in the world.

Crazy Horse

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610939" data-time="1472599876">
You're missing the obvious - Ben Stokes couldn't even make the Canterbury team when he was in Christchurch and now he's their premier all rounder! :)</blockquote>
 
And Andy Caddick had the privilege of bowling to me in Christchurch 2nd grade so not only could he not make Canterbury he couldn't even make 1st grade club cricket!

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="610963" data-time="1472603839">
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Why shouldn't that be it for Guptill? The guy is 29 and has played 44 test matches. Since his return Guptill has averaged 18.7 against South Africa, England and Australia. I just can't see how he could possibly turn his test match career around. Has anyone ever played 6 years of sub standard test cricket and then suddenly became a good player?
 
I genuinely think that Bell, Papps or Fulton could average 21 against the top 5 teams in the world. 

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It quite possibly should. I just don't think Hesson will make the call to drop him unless he's confident that Raval is going to be better. 
 
My point is more that I don't think we will see the selectorial roundabout of previous years that saw endless recalls of e.g. Skippy Sinclair.
 
I guess Steve Waugh got dropped for 18 months after about six years of cricket and came back to be great. I wouldn't bet on that for Guppy, though - he's got holes in his test technique.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crazy Horse" data-cid="610968" data-time="1472604835">
And Andy Caddick had the privilege of bowling to me in Christchurch 2nd grade so not only could he not make Canterbury he couldn't even make 1st grade club cricket!</blockquote>
 
Maybe he just bowled shit in Christchurch. He did an excellent impression of a bowling machine for Nathan Astle in 2002.

No Quarter

I really thought Guppy would address those holes, he's worked extensively with Crowe and also taken time to play the longer form up north to work on his game. So it's not through a lack of effort. He just goes too hard at the ball all the time and gets caught in the slips. He would be far more comfortable against the older ball I reckon, and I was hoping he might drop down once BMac moved on. Opening is a bloody tough gig.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="610981" data-time="1472606774">
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I really thought Guppy would address those holes, he's worked extensively with Crowe and also taken time to play the longer form up north to work on his game. So it's not through a lack of effort. He just goes too hard at the ball all the time and gets caught in the slips. He would be far more comfortable against the older ball I reckon, and I was hoping he might drop down once BMac moved on. Opening is a bloody tough gig.
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Plants his foot early, so he's an lbw candidate as well.
 
And when neither of those things happens he seems to engineer some other way to get himself out cheaply.
 
Agree that it's very disappointing. A particular reason they probably won't drop him unless the alternatives are significantly better is keeping him tuned against international quality bowling for the shorter forms.

MN5

I think Guppys "aura" in the team must play a part. His ODI record is exceptional so he has a bit of weight to throw around in the dressing room based on that one would think.......Bell, Papps and Fulton that hyrdro11 mentioned certainly never had that string to their bows.

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="611015" data-time="1472610389">
I think Guppys "aura" in the team must play a part. His ODI record is exceptional so he has a bit of weight to throw around in the dressing room based on that one would think.......Bell, Papps and Fulton that hyrdro11 mentioned certainly never had that string to their bows.</blockquote>
 
Nah. 
Believe it or not. He's just having his extended chance that Hesson has given to all his punts in the 3 or 4 problem positions*. Rather than re-shuffling for the sake of shuffling. And there's no one knocking down the door. 
*except Wagner in the third seamer role.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610918" data-time="1472596862">
<div> But - I recall last time we were having this discussion about Jeetan and the wonders of English County Cricket (vs Mark Craig), you came up with the bold assertion that there was only about two NZ players who could get a county contract. But then a whole lot of them did - including the derided (by you) Wagner and Mark Craig. :)
 
There's simply no evidence to support your view that English County Cricket is superior to NZ domestic cricket. The best players from each make the national sides and at present, there's not a hell of a lot between England and NZ across the three forms of cricket - but, they've got 18 teams to choose from and we've only got six, so on that basis arguably our teams are stronger.
 
Then you look at the records of guys who play in both. Take Jeetan, for instance. You're telling me that he's the best bowler in county cricket. Well, he only came third in the NZ bowling averages last year.
 
Third out of the Patels that is! :)
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/plunket-shield-2015-16/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=10493;type=tournament'>http://stats.espncricinfo.com/plunket-shield-2015-16/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=10493;type=tournament</a>
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Ok, lets go. Mark Craig ended up playing for Gloucs seconds. Wagner I flagged as probably able to do well in England given his bowling style, as for the "Whole lot"? Which ones? Guys like Munro & Neesham can get gigs as T20 bash specialists - Chris Harris & Brad Hogg can still get gigs doing that.
 
There not a lot between the sides? So England, who beat Aussie last time out, beat SA in SA, beat India in India, are on par with NZ who Aussie dicked 4-0 & SA just did by an innings & have we EVER won in India? That's on par?
 
Patel in NZ domestic, I'm not arguing he is amazing in NZ conditions. That is a good line about the Patels tho'
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="610888" data-time="1472589640">
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Umm really ? NZ can genuinely say that about Rugby players who can't make the All Blacks but I don't think this statement is true at all. Throw some names at me.
 
Patels attitude when batting a few years ago, and his lack of results left a pretty bitter taste to many on here as I recall. I'm sure he has improved heaps but the bar was pretty low.
 
Is this competition in which he takes 50 wickets the same one in which Hadlee took 100 ( not to mention 1000 runs ) in a season a few times ?
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No, its not. The comp Hadlee took 100 in had 23 games a year, current one has 16. 100 in a season wasn't that big a deal when Hadlee did it, the double was. Tho' Fraklin Stephenson did it the year before at the same county.. so not that amazing. Almost no one gets even close to 100 wickets in the new setup. Same way scoring 1000 by the end of May used to be a bench mark, its almost impossible now. Because its a totally different comp.
 
As for names, sure -
 
Haseem Hameed would get in to open - tho' he'll probably get called up by England for the coming tours & then score 8,000 runs. Ditto Bell-Drumond. Jos Butler can't get into the England terst team but would come into ours as keeper with Watling moving up. Sam Billings, Scott Borthwick, Jason Roy & Tom Wastley would get into the middle order. Jonathan Trott & Ian Bell can't get into England now, but they are a bit past it. Both would be a massive step up from Guptil. While Samit Patel & Ravi Bopra would both offer the batsman who bowls bit thing we want. 
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610939" data-time="1472599876">
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You're missing the obvious - Ben Stokes couldn't even make the Canterbury team when he was in Christchurch and now he's their premier all rounder! :)
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Indeed, almost like he has got better... as his 258 v SA would tend to indicate.

KiwiPie

Given England's most recent test series on home soil was a 2-2 draw against Pakistan and they are bemoaning that they have only 2 test class batsmen in the top order (Cook and Root), and NZ also have 2 (Kane and Rosco) then it is hard to see where all these England batsmen are that would walk into New Zealand's test team. For Guptill, read Alex Hales - picked ahead of that long list of batsmen who would walk into NZ's team. 
 
I do think England is ahead of NZ as a test team right now - given our seamers have gone backwards and we don't have the power of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali in the middle order - but the top order batting is pretty much on a par - will struggle against any half decent attack as England's has for a while now. Test class top order batsmen are a rare species - making runs at 6 and 7 is not the same thing at all.

The Silver Fern

RSA vs NZ, 1st Test, Durban