RSA vs NZ, 1st Test, Durban
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610835" data-time="1472554368">
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<p>To be honest, it won't surprise me at all if Guppy doesn't get dropped. They persisted for longer with less return from Hamish Rutherford.</p>
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<p>I'm inclined to think Hesson runs a supportive regime for his batsmen in that he will back you and give you lots of chances - but, he's also got a streak of Neil Young in him in that - once you're gone, you can't come back - at least not for quite a while.</p>
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<p>I think he's a lot more patient and consistent than us fans - I like it a lot better than the chop and change "pull a rabbit out of a hat" policies we've seen in the past - which certainly saw many rabbits pulled from the hat, but very little magic.</p>
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<p>Maybe Guptill won't be dropped. However, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=2;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=140;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin2=1000;qualval2=runs;template=results;type=batting'>Guptill is one of the worst openers ever to have played so many games</a>. Even those stats are inflated by decent performances against Sri Lanka and the West Indies. Persevering with Tim McIntosh was a better idea because at least he sucked up a few balls.</p>
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<p>Tim Southee averages 18 with the bat against England, India, South Africa, Pakistan and Australia. <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=140;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin2=500;qualval2=runs;spanmin1=1+Jan+2000;spanval1=span;team=5;template=results;type=batting'>Martin Guptill averages only 21.</a> </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="610902" data-time="1472593899">
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<p>Maybe Guptill won't be dropped. However, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=2;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=140;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin2=1000;qualval2=runs;template=results;type=batting'>Guptill is one of the worst openers ever to have played so many games</a>. Even those stats are inflated by decent performances against Sri Lanka and the West Indies. Persevering with Tim McIntosh was a better idea because at least he sucked up a few balls.</p>
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<p>Tim Southee averages 18 with the bat against England, India, South Africa, Pakistan and Australia. <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=140;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmin2=500;qualval2=runs;spanmin1=1+Jan+2000;spanval1=span;team=5;template=results;type=batting'>Martin Guptill averages only 21.</a> </p>
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<p>Fuck that is pretty damning.</p>
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<p>Good to see Horne on the list there. For some reason I used to rate him, fucked if I know why. Those were some dark days for BC fans when he was opening.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="610840" data-time="1472556412">
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<p>I meant more the additude on here. Posters crank themselves into a fenzy over a basketballer doing well in the states or Dixon going round & round the fucking track, but any mention of how well Jeets is doing - and it really is standout, is met by howls of derision like he fucked the entire Ferns mums last time he was in town...</p>
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<p>People spent 3 years talking about how we get Jesse back at the time when his batting was heading south so fast he can't make a very average division 2 Essex team anymore, yet no one can deal with a spinner getting better by playing week in week out & turning 30. I get no one here watches county cricket, but its a hell of a long way up from NZ domestic & its got a pretty good record recently as a production line, there's probably 10 batsmen who can't get into England who would walk into NZ right now alongside Kane & Ross.</p>
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<p>Your hyperbole is getting ludicrous. Frenzy? Howls of derision?</p>
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<p>FFS stop ranting about things people havent said or acted.</p> -
<p>County cricket is just not that high of a standard either.. since when has County cricket in England been put back on the pedestal? .. oh.. since Gollum started his crusade...</p>
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<p>I would argue strongly that it is not a long way up from NZ domestic cricket. Just more popular and more hyped.</p>
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<p>In fact the ICC rankings would show much the same. England are ranked 4th.. NZ 7th? and in ODI's and T20.... NZ is well ahead.</p>
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<p>But of course if you believe that rankings indicate strength of domestic comps.. well done Pakistan... great domestic comp they have...</p>
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<p>The reality is that it is pretty much impossible to accurately judge the strength of these comps. </p>
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<p>I watched County cricket alot while I was in England and attended numerous live games. The standard was good, not great. I see just as high quality games in NZ... me and the 4 others that attend.</p>
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<p>As for Patel.. he was gutless the last time he went to SA, that is not opinion, that is a fact. Going to a domestic league overseas and avoiding the difficulties and challenges of international cricketer.. doesn't make you a better international cricketer.</p> -
<p>I think the selectors will only look at what Guptill has done since being brought back by Hesson. He's averaged about 30 and has a century and four 50s over a 15 month period.</p>
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<p>Not great, but we've had plenty worse - they just didn't score enough runs to make your list.</p>
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<p>What I think about Hesson's policy is that if he drops Guptill and brings in Raval, that's it for Guppy for at least 12 months (while Raval gets his turn) and maybe forever (e.g. Hamish Rutherford doesn't look like getting back) - perhaps a bit like Michael Bevan - Hesson might well be harsh enough that once you're on the test scrapheap you stay there. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="610840" data-time="1472556412">
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<p>I meant more the additude on here. Posters crank themselves into a fenzy over a basketballer doing well in the states or Dixon going round & round the fucking track, but any mention of how well Jeets is doing - and it really is standout, is met by howls of derision like he fucked the entire Ferns mums last time he was in town...</p>
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<p>People spent 3 years talking about how we get Jesse back at the time when his batting was heading south so fast he can't make a very average division 2 Essex team anymore, yet no one can deal with a spinner getting better by playing week in week out & turning 30. I get no one here watches county cricket, but its a hell of a long way up from NZ domestic & its got a pretty good record recently as a production line, there's probably 10 batsmen who can't get into England who would walk into NZ right now alongside Kane & Ross.</p>
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<p>My howls of derision (such as they are) are more aimed at you. Jeets is just unfortunate by-catch. :)</p>
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<p>So let me say up front - I am delighted for him that he's dominating county cricket and making a fortune. In my view he simply cannot dismiss too many Englishmen cheaply - the more the merrier!</p>
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<p>But - I recall last time we were having this discussion about Jeetan and the wonders of English County Cricket (vs Mark Craig), you came up with the bold assertion that there was only about two NZ players who could get a county contract. But then a whole lot of them did - including the derided (by you) Wagner and Mark Craig. :)</p>
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<p>There's simply no evidence to support your view that English County Cricket is superior to NZ domestic cricket. The best players from each make the national sides and at present, there's not a hell of a lot between England and NZ across the three forms of cricket - but, they've got 18 teams to choose from and we've only got six, so on that basis arguably our teams are stronger.</p>
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<p>Then you look at the records of guys who play in both. Take Jeetan, for instance. You're telling me that he's the best bowler in county cricket. Well, he only came third in the NZ bowling averages last year.</p>
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<p>Third out of the Patels that is! :)</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/plunket-shield-2015-16/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=10493;type=tournament'>http://stats.espncricinfo.com/plunket-shield-2015-16/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=10493;type=tournament</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610918" data-time="1472596862">
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<p>Then you look at the records of guys who play in both. Take Jeetan, for instance. You're telling me that he's the best bowler in county cricket. Well, he only came third in the NZ bowling averages last year.</p>
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<p>Third out of the Patels that is! :)</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.espncricinfo.com/plunket-shield-2015-16/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=10493;type=tournament'>http://stats.espncricinfo.com/plunket-shield-2015-16/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=10493;type=tournament</a></p>
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<p>Well bowled Chris.. i cant wait to see how Gollum plays that seamer at his head...</p>
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<p>Probably scream at the umpire that you are trying to murder him.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="610907" data-time="1472594898"><p>
Fuck that is pretty damning.<br><br>
Good to see Horne on the list there. For some reason I used to rate him, fucked if I know why. Those were some dark days for BC fans when he was opening.</p></blockquote>
Not damning at all. About where expected and better than M Horne. I'd bite your hand off if you offered me M Horne to open for NZ.<br><br>
Averaging 20 v the best opening attacks, cashing in v the others. That's OK by me for 1 of our top 6, and the weaker of our 2 openers. We aren't and never will be works class accross all 11 positions. <br><br>
If he was doing this in the easiest spot in the order (number 5) then it wouldn't be good enough.<br><br>
No one else is pressuring his position.<br><br>
Nothing to see here. -
<p>Bring back Bryan Young</p>
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<p>I do like gollums work on here so not gonna attack him like the Baron has but I wouldn't mind knowing who these ten mystical "Roger Twoses" are........let's get the NZ residency sorted quicksmart ! I do seem to recall in very recent memory the England team having three blokes ( Pietersen, Strauss and Trott ) in their top six who probably enjoyed snacking on biltong more than mushy peas which would indicate your point is rather flawed.</p>
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<p>I have Sir Paddles book somewhere and off the top of my head I think he averaged 18 and 31 with ball and bat over ten seasons for Notts ( vs 22 and 27 in tests for NZ ). That is out of this fucken world.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="610933" data-time="1472599252">
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<p>I do like gollums work on here so not gonna attack him like the Baron has but I wouldn't mind knowing who these ten mystical "Roger Twoses" are........let's get the NZ residency sorted quicksmart ! I do seem to recall in very recent memory the England team having three blokes ( Pietersen, Strauss and Trott ) in their top six who probably enjoyed snacking on biltong more than mushy peas which would indicate your point is rather flawed.</p>
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<p>I have Sir Paddles book somewhere and off the top of my head I think he averaged 18 and 31 with ball and bat over ten seasons for Notts ( vs 22 and 27 in tests for NZ ). That is out of this fucken world.</p>
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<p>You're missing the obvious - Ben Stokes couldn't even make the Canterbury team when he was in Christchurch and now he's their premier all rounder! :)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610939" data-time="1472599876">
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<p>You're missing the obvious - Ben Stokes couldn't even make the Canterbury team when he was in Christchurch and now he's their premier all rounder! :)</p>
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<p>He's another Flintoff, not another Beefy Botham. The aura far exceeds the averages......but I do see your point.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="610933" data-time="1472599252">
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<p>I do like gollums work on here so not gonna attack him like the Baron has but I wouldn't mind knowing who these ten mystical "Roger Twoses" are........let's get the NZ residency sorted quicksmart ! I do seem to recall in very recent memory the England team having three blokes ( Pietersen, Strauss and Trott ) in their top six who probably enjoyed snacking on biltong more than mushy peas which would indicate your point is rather flawed.</p>
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<p>I have Sir Paddles book somewhere and off the top of my head I think he averaged 18 and 31 with ball and bat over ten seasons for Notts ( vs 22 and 27 in tests for NZ ). That is out of this fucken world.</p>
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<p>fair enough.. but I have to ask... why the howls of derision? Why are you in such a frenzy about this?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="610928" data-time="1472598506">
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<p>Well bowled Chris.. i cant wait to see how Gollum plays that seamer at his head...</p>
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<p>Probably scream at the umpire that you are trying to murder him.</p>
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<p>Gollum?</p>
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<p>He won't even rub that little bruise. I'm expecting him to come back hard.</p>
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<p>The question is whether I can draw him into a few wild hooks with assertions that Wagner and Craig will never play county cricket again - so that hopefully he'll pop one straight up. :)</p> -
<p><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2301b8ae-f5bc-11e3-afd3-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz4IrfaXh00'>http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2301b8ae-f5bc-11e3-afd3-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz4IrfaXh00</a></span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Compare that with the average first-team salary in county cricket: about £50,000 a year. Of course, some elite overseas players, such as former South African Test captain Graeme Smith at Surrey, can make a reported £150,000, but they are extremely rare.</span></p>
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People remember Patel's batting vs South Africa, but his bowling at test level - what you'd pick him for - was generally not that memorable. <br><br>
Not great, not bad, just nothing that's made me lose sleep wondering if we'd have won a match in recent times with Jeets instead of Craig/Santner/Vettori. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="610949" data-time="1472601891">
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<p>fair enough.. but I have to ask... why the howls of derision? Why are you in such a frenzy about this?</p>
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<p>Did you reply to the correct quote here or am I missing something ?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="610913" data-time="1472595695">
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<p>I think the selectors will only look at what Guptill has done since being brought back by Hesson. He's averaged about 30 and has a century and four 50s over a 15 month period.</p>
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<p>Not great, but we've had plenty worse - they just didn't score enough runs to make your list.</p>
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<p>What I think about Hesson's policy is that if he drops Guptill and brings in Raval, that's it for Guppy for at least 12 months (while Raval gets his turn) and maybe forever (e.g. Hamish Rutherford doesn't look like getting back) - perhaps a bit like Michael Bevan - Hesson might well be harsh enough that once you're on the test scrapheap you stay there. </p>
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<p>Why shouldn't that be it for Guptill? The guy is 29 and has played 44 test matches. Since his return Guptill has averaged 18.7 against South Africa, England and Australia. I just can't see how he could possibly turn his test match career around. Has anyone ever played 6 years of sub standard test cricket and then suddenly became a good player?</p>
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<p>I genuinely think that Bell, Papps or Fulton could average 21 against the top 5 teams in the world.<br>
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