Crusaders 2016 and 2017
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<p>Am I the only one that is pretty happy with the result of making the playoffs in our rebuilding year?</p>
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<p>Guess so. Yes we need some more fire power in the backs. But Dagg has found some form Mo'unga will take a lot from this season.</p>
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<p>I think Matt Todd missed a chance this season to step up. </p>
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<p>Over all I would give them a solid B. Lets hope Razor has some new ideas as the attack has gotten a bit predictable. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="600140" data-time="1469439758"><p>
Is this directed at me - or was I just the post above it? The only discussion I've had about Ralph lately was defending his ability as a centre when playing for the Maori and in his pre Crusader days for BoP and Auckland yet somehow I'm being targeted by disillusioned BoP and Crusaders fans. ;)</p></blockquote>
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Nah not you, there was a continuity error -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gt12" data-cid="600103" data-time="1469431278">
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<p>Nice argument, except you don't get hardened unless you get a chance, and this creates one less chance for an NZ eligible player.</p>
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<p>The Saders inability to hold on to players (such as FWGJMN) shouldn't be a reason to get another outsider in and you're suggesting locking down one open spot with the Mitre 10 cup to come? WHat's the point of being good in that competition if there are no open Super spots to compete for?</p>
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<p>Rant approaching...</p>
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<p>I'm surprised that I'm the only one who thinks this is a stupid idea.<strong> There seems to be a kind of satisfaction from the Sader fans that bringing in an retired Aussie winger is step up for their team?</strong> I don't get how you (not exactly you Wurzel, the wider group) bag Todd Blackadder for his shitty selections then go gaga for a 31 year old who's most likely to be a failure anyway.</p>
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<p>The best case scenario is that he comes back as the 2011 version, but that was 6 years ago - when he was up against Hosea Gear (who was a <em>huge</em> success when he came back for the Chiefs), Sivi (long gone), Jane (the best argument for him, as he is older but also on the way out), and Kahui (same age, but also with dodgy shoulders).</p>
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<p>Plus, he's been playing for the <em>Heat</em> here, who are fucking <em>terrible</em>, and wikipedia tells me he didn't manage to score any points for them in one season.</p>
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<p>So, fucking great buy! </p>
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<p>End rant.</p>
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<p>I'm not feeling that at all, and nor do I feel that vibe on this thread so I don't know what you're on about. I certainly don't see anyone going "gaga" over him, but don't let the truth get in the way of your average story.</p>
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<p>It's a dumb selection. He probably still shades Nafi Tuitivake, Keiron Fonotia and Rob Thompson as recent Crusaders wingers, but it's still a really poor selection. I'd rather we 'promoted from within' and went into 2017 with Macilai, Havili'i and Goodhue, possibly even Fifita. I fear if it's announced by the Crusaders, it's going to be termed the result of a "global search", which I can only assume Razor and Riach conducted with only access to a 2011 ARU Almanac while stealing wifi at a Honda dealership, but trapped on the company intranet.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Wurzel" data-cid="600118" data-time="1469434656"><p>The Highlanders have Tanaka, the Chiefs Leitch and the Blues Francis. Not sure the Crusaders are any more evil than what has become standard in NZ Super Rugby franchises.</p></blockquote>
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Nice narrative - it's against the Crusaders! <br><br>
This has got nothing to do with the Crusaders being 'evil' and everything to do with the development of local talent. <br><br>
I think I've been really clear about my thoughts on overseas players (even at the Chiefs), so where does this 'evil' us against the world attitude come from? <br><br>
To discuss your points though, I agree it's become standard and I think it's bad policy and oversight by the NZRU. As we've already talked about Leitch, I'd argue that if Francis isn't eligible for NZ or is not in the process of becoming eligible, he should not be offered a contract or on anyone's books either. And, even though you didn't bring him up, I don't think Sau should have been brought in either (Sunwolves, again).<br><br>
Tanaka is probably the only foreign player who I love and want to stay, just because he's awesome. And, I see your point in that 'everyone else is doing it, so why shouldn't we'. He's the best recent example I can think of (apart from Nadolo of course) of a non eligible player being really valuable. However, I'd also argue that the percentage of them actually turning out to be better than existing local options is actually not that good. From this year, I can think of four overseas eligible players brought in (Yamashita, Sau, Volavola, & Alaalatoa), none of whom have really been worth the effort. And, I'm really doubtful that Ioane has been saving his best form for the 2017 Crusaders - as I've expressed.<br><br>
So, despite the ongoing narrative that there is a bias against the Saders, I'm only interested in the debate about (a) whether this is potentially a good signing or not for the Crusaders and (b) for NZ rugby. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="600143" data-time="1469440728">
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<p>Am I the only one that is pretty happy with the result of making the playoffs in our rebuilding year?</p>
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<p>Guess so. Yes we need some more fire power in the backs. But Dagg has found some form Mo'unga will take a lot from this season.</p>
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<p>I think Matt Todd missed a chance this season to step up. </p>
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<p>Over all I would give them a solid B. Lets hope Razor has some new ideas as the attack has gotten a bit predictable. </p>
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<p>The last point is a real unknown as while he hasn't done anything wacky with Canterbury's backs, he also hasn't needed to given the cattle at his disposal. But one has a suspicion that he might have the ability to manufacture a silk purse from a sow's ear: and he might just need to in 2017. One other real positive is we have a 2017 coach who has a massive opportunity to squeeze the crap out of every last bit of NPC squad talent in 2016 with an eye to bringing guys through for the Crusaders in 2017.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pukunui" data-cid="600025" data-time="1469415944">
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<p>My main memory of him is Kaino picking him up and carrying him backwards in the 2011 RWC Semi final.</p>
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<p>To be fair, I think one of the key reasons people remember that was because Ioane was so good, which made the feat all the more impressive.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="600143" data-time="1469440728">
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<p>Am I the only one that is pretty happy with the result of making the playoffs in our rebuilding year?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Guess so. Yes we need some more fire power in the backs. But Dagg has found some form Mo'unga will take a lot from this season.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think Matt Todd missed a chance this season to step up. </p>
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<p>Over all I would give them a solid B. Lets hope Razor has some new ideas as the attack has gotten a bit predictable. </p>
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<p>I said something similar in another thread.</p>
<p>For some reason, maybe because of past success or having an All Black laden forward pack, a Crusaders season is not a success if they don't win the title.</p>
<p>Or maybe, some people just prefer to look at the things that went wrong, and ignore the things that went well.</p>
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<p>I think the Crusaders had a pretty good season, considering the players they have (and don't have!) and the limitations of Blackadder's coaching decisions. I agree with you about Mo'unga developing well during his first year; I would add Barrett, too.</p>
<p>Dagg has hugely improved since last year; Crotty has also been good. Ellis was good in the beginning of the season, but like Nadolo, became less effective during the last rounds. Injuries and suspensions didn't help. Fruean's power was missed in the midfield.</p>
<p>What was pretty obvious, however, is that the more they had to rely on newbies or average players, the more difficult it became against good opposition. Apart from players' inexperience, that could also be due to preparation/coaching. </p>
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<p>I checked the backs signings and I could only find confirmation of the following for next season:</p>
<ul><li>Bryn Hall (halfback)</li>
<li>Leon Fukofuka (halfback)</li>
<li>Ryan Crotty (midfield)</li>
<li>Jone Macilai (wing)</li>
<li>Israel Dagg (fullback)</li>
</ul><p>With respect to the other backs (except those whose departures have been officially announced - Nadolo, Ellis, McNicholl & Fonotia), I couldn't find any statement that they were signed for <em>more</em> than one season last year.</p>
<p>It seems there are lots of gaps to fill. Huge challenge but also opportunity for Robertson and whoever his new assistants are going to be.</p> -
I thought overall Todd was excellent this season. He had a few huge games and then was consistent in the others. <br><br>
For me Nadolo was a little disappointing. <br><br>
After showing some promise last season, Drummond didn't take that next step to say next year I'm your man for the future. <br><br>
Macalai arrgghhh...... -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Tim" data-cid="600119" data-time="1469435255"><p>
IIRC, Francis' parents live in NZ, and he hasn't played international rugby. Not sure if he in NZ qualified though.<br><br>
Sa'u has played for Japan.</p></blockquote>
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Francis would have to go close on residency wouldn't he? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="600334" data-time="1469499286">
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<p>Francis would have to go close on residency wouldn't he?</p>
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<p>I think the residency clock restarts when the players leaves</p>
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<p>After playing for Auckland then Waikato he went back to the UK for a couple of seasons. I believe has only been back in NZ since signing with Counties last year?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="600180" data-time="1469448419">
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<p>I thought overall Todd was excellent this season. He had a few huge games and then was consistent in the others.<br><br>
For me Nadolo was a little disappointing.<br><br>
After showing some promise last season, Drummond didn't take that next step to say next year I'm your man for the future.<br><br>
Macalai arrgghhh......</p>
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<p>Totally agree with all of these assessments.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Canes4life" data-cid="600133" data-time="1469437823">
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<p>Crusaders mediocrity in the backs continues!! An aging Ioane will add very little to an already stagnate backline!! I'm picking the Crusaders to be the bottom of the NZ conference next year by a wee way!!</p>
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<p>Six exclamation marks for three sentences. Such restraint. </p> -
The funny thing is , despite the disappointing finish , the Crusaders exceeded how I thought they would go this season ,<br><br>They played some good rugby along the way and made the play offs ,<br><br>I was expecting with the losses in players they would struggle more than that
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="600462" data-time="1469530397">
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<p>The funny thing is , despite the disappointing finish , the Crusaders exceeded how I thought they would go this season ,<br><br>
They played some good rugby along the way and made the play offs ,<br><br>
I was expecting with the losses in players they would struggle more than that</p>
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<p>At the risk of being called out for "Crusader bashing"...</p>
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<p>They were certainly better then the majority of overseas opposition, which is where they picked up enough points to make the 8, but were quite comfortably the 4th best team in NZ as the results bear out. I'm not sure that is "better then I expected", probably more "a bit worse then what I expected given the strength of their pack".</p> -
<p>I think some of the "under-achieve" calls might be because at the end of that run where they played a bunch of overseas teams, they looked like the best team in the comp. They were brutally direct, being directed well by their halves, the big unit on the wing was a hyped threat, and Dagg was keen as fuck to be an All Black again. And then early in a derby game they looked really good (highlanders?) before being run over.</p>
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<p>I would say their position in the NZ conference was probably as expected, but their overall points haul, and playing a final was above what most would have expected at the start of Feb (before it became clear the overseas teams were fucking rubbish)</p> -
Yeah that is probably more accurate , next year will be interesting with a blues squad in the mix that is seemingly on the improve under Tana .
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<p>These were the TAB odds in Feb:</p>
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<div>1 Chiefs $6.50</div>
<div>2 Hurricanes $7.00</div>
<div>3 Highlanders $7.00</div>
<div>4 Crusaders $8.00</div>
<div>5 Waratahs $8.50</div>
<div>6 Brumbies $8.50</div>
<div>7 Stormers $11.00</div>
<div>8 Sharks $13.00</div>
<div>9 Jaguares $13.00</div>
<div>10 Bulls $18.00</div>
<div>11 Blues $26.00</div>
<div>12 Reds $41.00</div>
<div>13 Lions $31.00</div>
<div>14 Rebels $61.00</div>
<div>15 Force $101.00</div>
<div>16 Cheetahs $101.00</div>
<div>17 Kings $151.00</div>
<div>18 Sunwolves $501.00</div>
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<div>So yeah about as expected. Lions at $31!</div> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="600555" data-time="1469579081">
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<p>At the risk of being called out for "Crusader bashing"...</p>
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<p>They were certainly better then the majority of overseas opposition, which is where they picked up enough points to make the 8, but were quite comfortably the 4th best team in NZ as the results bear out. I'm not sure that is "better then I expected", <strong>probably more "a bit worse then what I expected given the strength of their pack"</strong>.</p>
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<p>I don't agree with you, mostly because of that last phrase. It's a 15 man game and you don't win games and competitions just by having a great pack. The expectations were moderately low at the beginning of the season because the Crusaders lost all their playmakers, in addition to already having a failing backline in the previous years and the team starting with Dagg, Crotty and Fruean all out injured from the beginning of the season.</p>
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<p>I think most people were surprised they did well, and when Dagg and Crotty came back firing (and before Nadolo's suspension), they smashed the Brumbies in Canberra and suddenly some people started thinking they could go all the way. Then Nadolo got suspended and Blackadder had a brain fart by starting Havili and putting Crotty on the bench against the Highlanders, and the backline fell apart again. That was the main reason they were smashed by the Highlanders. Then the June break happened and their momentum was gone (and Blackadder didn't stop having brain farts, such as starting Macilai against the Chiefs in Fiji instead of McNicholl, who was not injured).</p>
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<p>If Robertson wants to win a Super Rugby title, a better game plan, better selections and rebuilding a good backline should be his main focus. Mo'unga has huge potential but needs experience around him. I see his situation not different to that of West at the Blues. The Blues have signed some awesome and experienced players in the backs (with Pulu, SBW in addition to Ranger and Moala). The Crusaders should do that, too. At the moment, the only big names in the backs are Crotty and Dagg. They need more (and I'm not convinced Digby Ioane should be one of them) to guide the young talent they have in Mo'unga, and whoever else they sign from NZU20s, their academy and elsewhere.</p>
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<p>Edit: with Robertson himself a forward, I hope he will get a good assistant to coach the backs. Not sure who are in the frame ...</p> -
<p>Wait, the main reason they got smashed by the Highlanders was because Havili was starting? What happened to it being a 15 man game?</p>
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<p>So in summary: Blackadder had a shit game plan and shit selections, followed by a series of brain farts.</p>
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<p>It's pretty subjective so I'm happy to agree to disagree. :)</p>
