All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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@mariner4life It would've been interesting to see how the pass-option would've played out. The trick would be to get to the edge before Furbank comes up, and then execute the overlap. Definitely possible but skills - same as with the cross-kick - have to be excellent. Those English defenders are full-on sprinting so lots of pressure on decision-making and passing skills.
Also, while the English outside defenders are sprinting north to south, English scramble defenders are sprinting east to west, meaning that an overlap can become compromised. I still think it's possible, though, you're right.
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Hard disagree.
Defence coaches know the chip is a viable option and have sweepers there for it (they're not rushing 12 guys). Far more often than not you're turning over the ball at this level.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Hard disagree.
Defence coaches know the chip is a viable option and have sweepers there for it (they're not rushing 12 guys). Far more often than not you're turning over the ball at this level.
Yet, if you watch the opening 20 mins again, you'll see the tactic was quite strong, and execution was what let it down. Defenses are so good these days that 5 running against 5 almost never creates a line break. Trying a few different tactics in the opening few mins creates uncertainty.
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What's really interesting is both teams started with exactly the same idea.
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I would rather not get to the point we need 10% kicks to go our way to score.
A big reason we were dominant for SO long is our attack was SO effective and at the same time EXTREMELY repeatable.
Draw and pass, offload when it's clearly on, square the defender etc etc.
We weren't Fiji. Our literal slogan was doing the simple things REALLY well and really fast.
You could almost say it's a bluff by the English defense. Maybe the point of the rush is not only for the pressure but also to make us resort to this low percentage game.
That even when these kicks come off they rarely actually produce a scoring play, more often than not we just gain 20 metres.
It's a statistical game. Kick the ball, and lose a big chunk of control of proceedings as opposed to going through the hands.
And looking at that first frame above it looks like a guaranteed try if it goes through the hands. Another reason I hate BB at 10, he is obsessed with these low percentage kicks.
Over a course of a game, from 10 attempts, we regather 1 for a 20 metre gain, while the other 9 we lose possession and are left defending.
The opposition defense must love it.
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@mariner4life I think the downside of the pass there is it puts less space between the Kiwi outsides (Clarke, Taylor, Savea) and those 14 English players. The benefit of the kick there is that you can attack the space on your own terms whereas the pass will lead to the linebreak but there's less time and space to get to the tryline.
But again, I would've liked to have seen it play out. And DMac absolutely hits Williams there.
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My problem with the kick pass there is yes, you outflank the defenders, but
Far more often than not, no matter the player, the hang time and the inaccuracy means it rarely hits the winger on the run. They normally need to stop to catch and lots of timing goes out the window.
They looks awesome when they come off, but I have seen for too many blown to think they are always the best option.
I also tend to think running it there gives.you less chance of a turnover if it doesn't go 100% right. -
But hey, this a refreshing change in chat TBH
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@mariner4life Fully agree that it isn't always the best option. At Ellis Park, they moved the Springbok defence around through those kinds of miss passes, to good effect. The execution that was lacking there was mostly around the breakdown.
Ultimately, I think both options can work. If I'm very generous to Scott Hansen and his attack, I'd say that they are building up their repertoire of attack. Looking at the Crusaders over the Scott Robertson years, they would often play very different according to the opponent. If this coaching team is able to make it credible that the All Blacks can attack in a number of different ways, then it becomes much harder to prepare a defence.
But again, this is a best case scenario. It's just as possible that they have very little idea of what they're actually trying to achieve.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
If I'm very generous to Scott Hansen and his attack, I'd say that they are building up their repertoire of attack.
I am hopeful but so far disappointed.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
The correct call in your second example was to go the other way - open - there’s already a 6 on 5 mismatch in favour of the ABs and plenty of turf
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@MiketheSnow The question would then become how do you get the ball there quicker than the English defenders? Barrett would had to have signalled the switch before the Tuipulotu carry, and there's every chance that the English defence reacts to that.
Or you'd have to be talking about a reverse wipers kick by Barrett there, which I don't think anyone would think is a good idea, unless you're Tony Brown coaching an NPC side.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow The question would then become how do you get the ball there quicker than the English defenders? Barrett would had to have signalled the switch before the Tuipulotu carry, and there's every chance that the English defence reacts to that.
Or you'd have to be talking about a reverse wipers kick by Barrett there, which I don't think anyone would think is a good idea, unless you're Tony Brown coaching an NPC side.
Gone open from the start, from the base of the ruck.
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@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.
Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.
Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.
When you have either of or both Savea and Sititi running into space that will attract more than one defender
And you have Clarke to run it in if he's given space and time
Demonstrably better than the choice they made IMHO
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@MiketheSnow We'll have to agree to disagree, Mike!
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@reprobate haven’t forensically looked at the off the ball shots from Sat like you and @booboo
but in real time they looked like a continuation of a tactic you were using during the RC.
Takes out the cleaners (sacrificing someone who likely isn’t going get to/be effective in the breakdown) and gives your jacklers an easier shot at the ball. Earned you a few holding penalties against us.
The Irish were also doing it in our series. So wouldn’t be surprised if this came up as something the officials needed to focus on.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@MiketheSnow That's asking a whole lot of the forwards who are positioned there. All of the potential playmakers - both Barretts and Will Jordan - are on the right hand side. On the left you have Savea, Cane, Lomax, Williams, Sititi and Clarke. They're also in no discernable shape to execute the overlap.
Kiwi forwards are skilled but if you're expecting them to pull off a backline move on their own, then I think you may be expecting a bit too much from them.
When you have either of or both Savea and Sititi running into space that will attract more than one defender
And you have Clarke to run it in if he's given space and time
Demonstrably better than the choice they made IMHO
Still need someone to take the pass and redistribute each time - the first five players are Ardie, Cane, Lomax, Williams and Sititi.
No way every one of them is going to be in position to do so at the speed required.
Plus they'll all want (correctly) to be available to clean out should the picture change/move break down at any point.
Not happening Mike.
