All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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Ball playing tight forwards isn't the point of difference it was 12 years ago. Everyone unskilled.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Ball playing tight forwards isn't the point of difference it was 12 years ago. Everyone up-skilled.
iPhone I assume. My fix
But, yep that’s not a point of difference. I feel like this score off every phase idea is a terrible way to develop game drivers. I love me some Wayne Smith but that quite WTF. -
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Try, and penalty against Maro, lucky it didn't connect with telea's head
A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier.
https://cdn4.theroar.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Mark-Telea.jpgThat's a penalty try if he collects him there.
In the last 10 or so, he basically got away with murder at the breakdown near their line as well. A real competitor but were was Gardner with all this offending?
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@mencey said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We have 3 years to get this right.
Sorry but that attitude is a big part of what is wrong with NZ Rugby. We have 6 days to get this right.
Winning 80+% of all our tests, not folding like overcooked pasta and living up to the legacy of 125 years of AB dominance are way more important than a tournament every four years.
Yep agree. Just mean that I always want us to win the world cup as well as all other tests.
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@Jet said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I need to find a woman who loves me as much as Beauden Barrett loves kicking the ball away.
It might be quicker to just find a woman who loves kicking your balls away.
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I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:
Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).
What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:
Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).
What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
A well-reasoned insight, thank you!
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I don't mind the good kicks from Barrett (or whoever is wearing 10) - it's just too often they're not very good.
Barrett has probably been the best kick-passer in the world and I would make the case he probably paved the way for a lot of other 10s to bring it into their repertoire.
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Though I would argue that hands will beat them on that first fucking frame.
One wide pass and they are fucked, we're behind them with numbers. The kick pass adds too many variables
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Though I would argue that hands will beat them on that first fucking frame.
Absolutely top notch swearing. No requirement, adds nothing, jus there for the hell of it.
On topic, a well executed chip is the best way to beat the rush defence. Do it once or twice and the opposition will need to immediately think about their alignment. I thought the tactic was spot on.
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@mariner4life It would've been interesting to see how the pass-option would've played out. The trick would be to get to the edge before Furbank comes up, and then execute the overlap. Definitely possible but skills - same as with the cross-kick - have to be excellent. Those English defenders are full-on sprinting so lots of pressure on decision-making and passing skills.
Also, while the English outside defenders are sprinting north to south, English scramble defenders are sprinting east to west, meaning that an overlap can become compromised. I still think it's possible, though, you're right.
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Hard disagree.
Defence coaches know the chip is a viable option and have sweepers there for it (they're not rushing 12 guys). Far more often than not you're turning over the ball at this level.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Hard disagree.
Defence coaches know the chip is a viable option and have sweepers there for it (they're not rushing 12 guys). Far more often than not you're turning over the ball at this level.
Yet, if you watch the opening 20 mins again, you'll see the tactic was quite strong, and execution was what let it down. Defenses are so good these days that 5 running against 5 almost never creates a line break. Trying a few different tactics in the opening few mins creates uncertainty.
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What's really interesting is both teams started with exactly the same idea.
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I would rather not get to the point we need 10% kicks to go our way to score.
A big reason we were dominant for SO long is our attack was SO effective and at the same time EXTREMELY repeatable.
Draw and pass, offload when it's clearly on, square the defender etc etc.
We weren't Fiji. Our literal slogan was doing the simple things REALLY well and really fast.
You could almost say it's a bluff by the English defense. Maybe the point of the rush is not only for the pressure but also to make us resort to this low percentage game.
That even when these kicks come off they rarely actually produce a scoring play, more often than not we just gain 20 metres.
It's a statistical game. Kick the ball, and lose a big chunk of control of proceedings as opposed to going through the hands.
And looking at that first frame above it looks like a guaranteed try if it goes through the hands. Another reason I hate BB at 10, he is obsessed with these low percentage kicks.
Over a course of a game, from 10 attempts, we regather 1 for a 20 metre gain, while the other 9 we lose possession and are left defending.
The opposition defense must love it.
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@mariner4life I think the downside of the pass there is it puts less space between the Kiwi outsides (Clarke, Taylor, Savea) and those 14 English players. The benefit of the kick there is that you can attack the space on your own terms whereas the pass will lead to the linebreak but there's less time and space to get to the tryline.
But again, I would've liked to have seen it play out. And DMac absolutely hits Williams there.
