All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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Try, and penalty against Maro, lucky it didn't connect with telea's head
A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier.
https://cdn4.theroar.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Mark-Telea.jpg -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Even when we do have a game where the passes stick and we all go "Wow", are we going to be able to back it up next week, and the next? Seems like quite a bit of improvement in ball skills required for just about everyone.
It’s possible but it will take time. Something that is difficult to bide in pro sports.
Post 2007 RWC and into that 2011-15 phase we played an up tempo style that put ball playing demands on some of our forwards that hadn’t been there. We had tight forwards standing at 1st receiver after rucks that were making delayed passes to a second wave. Hell even Owen Franks was doing it and I recall when he started as an AB he had average catching and passing skills.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Try, and penalty against Maro, lucky it didn't connect with telea's head
A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier.
https://cdn4.theroar.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Mark-Telea.jpgThat's a penalty try if he collects him there.
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@ACT-Crusader Yes - that's true. And the rest of the world was bemoaning how we'd stolen a march and they couldn't compete with our ball playing props - but, then we came back to the pack and maybe fell behind.
So maybe I should applaud the ambition and trust we'll get there.
In the meantime, I guess we just need enough passes to stick to continue to win by a point or two.
But, it looks like taking some time to be pretty!
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Ball playing tight forwards isn't the point of difference it was 12 years ago. Everyone unskilled.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Ball playing tight forwards isn't the point of difference it was 12 years ago. Everyone up-skilled.
iPhone I assume. My fix
But, yep that’s not a point of difference. I feel like this score off every phase idea is a terrible way to develop game drivers. I love me some Wayne Smith but that quite WTF. -
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Try, and penalty against Maro, lucky it didn't connect with telea's head
A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier.
https://cdn4.theroar.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Mark-Telea.jpgThat's a penalty try if he collects him there.
In the last 10 or so, he basically got away with murder at the breakdown near their line as well. A real competitor but were was Gardner with all this offending?
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@mencey said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We have 3 years to get this right.
Sorry but that attitude is a big part of what is wrong with NZ Rugby. We have 6 days to get this right.
Winning 80+% of all our tests, not folding like overcooked pasta and living up to the legacy of 125 years of AB dominance are way more important than a tournament every four years.
Yep agree. Just mean that I always want us to win the world cup as well as all other tests.
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@Jet said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I need to find a woman who loves me as much as Beauden Barrett loves kicking the ball away.
It might be quicker to just find a woman who loves kicking your balls away.
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I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:
Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).
What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:
Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).
What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
A well-reasoned insight, thank you!
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I don't mind the good kicks from Barrett (or whoever is wearing 10) - it's just too often they're not very good.
Barrett has probably been the best kick-passer in the world and I would make the case he probably paved the way for a lot of other 10s to bring it into their repertoire.
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Though I would argue that hands will beat them on that first fucking frame.
One wide pass and they are fucked, we're behind them with numbers. The kick pass adds too many variables
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Though I would argue that hands will beat them on that first fucking frame.
Absolutely top notch swearing. No requirement, adds nothing, jus there for the hell of it.
On topic, a well executed chip is the best way to beat the rush defence. Do it once or twice and the opposition will need to immediately think about their alignment. I thought the tactic was spot on.
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@mariner4life It would've been interesting to see how the pass-option would've played out. The trick would be to get to the edge before Furbank comes up, and then execute the overlap. Definitely possible but skills - same as with the cross-kick - have to be excellent. Those English defenders are full-on sprinting so lots of pressure on decision-making and passing skills.
Also, while the English outside defenders are sprinting north to south, English scramble defenders are sprinting east to west, meaning that an overlap can become compromised. I still think it's possible, though, you're right.
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Hard disagree.
Defence coaches know the chip is a viable option and have sweepers there for it (they're not rushing 12 guys). Far more often than not you're turning over the ball at this level.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Hard disagree.
Defence coaches know the chip is a viable option and have sweepers there for it (they're not rushing 12 guys). Far more often than not you're turning over the ball at this level.
Yet, if you watch the opening 20 mins again, you'll see the tactic was quite strong, and execution was what let it down. Defenses are so good these days that 5 running against 5 almost never creates a line break. Trying a few different tactics in the opening few mins creates uncertainty.
