NZ First Five Crisis
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Kirwan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
We won’t know if Plummer is an option unless he’s tried.
Sure... but he hasn't exactly ripped up Super Rugby like the elite 10s did. I think it is possible Plummer is better than McKenzie, but that is not a high bar.
Daryl Mitchell was unheralded and only got a game when Nicholls got injured. I am sure there are many rugby equivalents who took their chance when it was given. Darry looked at home right from the off. Maybe Plummer can't make the jump. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be tested, otherwise all we have to go on is what people say with no actual evidence either way
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It could be forever before we’ll see a first five as good as Carter, so Cruden should be the current benchmark.
If that is the criteria, Dmac is progressing very well. He’s had piss all time in the AB 10 shirt, which is a failure of development.
Dmac has many similarities to Cruden - both are/were better when they had another option to help with clearances, especially if that person has a strong left boot. Both are excellent near the line and both have world class passing games (Cruden’s more based around offloads).
I think we just need the coaches to develop an attack strategy that takes advantage of Dmac’s strengths and get him help on exits. Jordie Barrett’s supposed huge boot is either criminally underused or is a myth. Dmac’s goal kicking recently is a concern but he’s generally a clutch kicker, no one arguing for No’unga can say shit based on his costly miss in the WC final.
I don’t think we are going to have our coaches develop a plan for Dmac though, it feels to me like our first five crisis is due to the coaches having a specific style of play, and player, in mind. It will be fascinating to see if everything comes together when he comes back. I’m not holding my breath.
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@Nepia said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@dogmeat said in NZ First Five Crisis:
There were only 13 tests between Fox and Mehrts - but it seemed like an eternity.
Do people think Fox would get a look in today? I doubt he'd make Super Rugby TBH. Doesn't fit NZ DNA and therein lies the problem. Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
The Fox coming up through the NZ system today would be a markedly different beast, he'd still have all the control, but he'd have more muscle/size and the running game he had as a youngster wouldn't be as easily dispensed with.
I think talent is talent, and Fox had it, he was a symptom of his era.
Fox might be quite similar to Plummer....
I think it's all DCs fault. He was such a gifted attacking weapon that everyone wants to find the next version. But they forget he was fundamentally sound in a way that BB, RM and DM are not. Along with all the other kids coming up
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Every few years a position pops up of concern. Last year we were worrying about halfback when Smith went. Now we are rolling into a period where we will half nearly half a dozen guys fighting for a spot. Lock is looking equally as competitive. As 10 is a critical position, there is some concern. We don't have a DC and as he was a generational player, we are unlikely to see another of that calibre. We just need to ensure the guys who do bring in can fit into the line up and style we want to use.
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@dogmeat said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
And that's why we don't win as many Tests anymore. Rugby is about doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time much more than it is about 3 second miracle plays that go viral on TicTok.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@dogmeat said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
And that's why we don't win as many Tests anymore. Rugby is about doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time much more than it is about 3 second miracle plays that go viral on TicTok.
We used to pick Fox over Botica, Merhts over Spencer. Because the best AB 10s were outstanding game managers, with accurate kicking games "off the tee" and in general play. DC was the Unicorn. And now I agree the pendulum has swung too far the other way. And that is why I want to at least see a throwback like Plummer have a go. Nothing wrong with a guy who is very good at kicking goals and kicking for territory, who is happy to pass the ball to his outsides most of the time but isn't afraid to have a dig every once in a while
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@SouthernMann said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Every few years a position pops up of concern. Last year we were worrying about halfback when Smith went. Now we are rolling into a period where we will half nearly half a dozen guys fighting for a spot. Lock is looking equally as competitive. As 10 is a critical position, there is some concern. We don't have a DC and as he was a generational player, we are unlikely to see another of that calibre. We just need to ensure the guys who do bring in can fit into the line up and style we want to use.
I think this is a very over optimistic post
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@canefan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@dogmeat said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time and playing the percentages doesn't jiggle NZ rugby's ovaries nowadays.
And that's why we don't win as many Tests anymore. Rugby is about doing the fundamentals right 99% of the time much more than it is about 3 second miracle plays that go viral on TicTok.
We used to pick Fox over Botica, Merhts over Spencer. Because the best AB 10s were outstanding game managers, with accurate kicking games "off the tee" and in general play. DC was the Unicorn. And now I agree the pendulum has swung too far the other way. And that is why I want to at least see a throwback like Plummer have a go. Nothing wrong with a guy who is very good at kicking goals and kicking for territory, who is happy to pass the ball to his outsides most of the time but isn't afraid to have a dig every once in a while
I don't mind our argument, but Plummer kicked significantly worse then McKenzie in Super.
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@canefan said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@gt12 I'd say Jordie has a big kick and they are not utilizing it.
Probably because it's an area weapon. Some precision would be nice.
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@Canes4life said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@ARHS said in NZ First Five Crisis:
Cameron
Too an extent, when the pressure comes on he's hopeless.
A ringing endorsement
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@nzzp yet dmac doesn't have a better test or super record, why have different criteria?
Do you answer your own question with Razor and Mounga, they won more than any combo of 10 and coach, so either Foster couldn't get best out of Mounga or Dmac can't work with Razor
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@chucknz said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp yet dmac doesn't have a better test or super record, why have different criteria?
Do you answer your own question with Razor and Mounga, they won more than any combo of 10 and coach, so either Foster couldn't get best out of Mounga or Dmac can't work with Razor
or, Test and Super ain't remotely the same sport any more.
I was very careful to say DMac will finish a better player. Wait 4 years and let's see. And quality may not just be on wins - RM got a rolls royce ride with that forward pack in Super. He was a cheat code at times, but it doesn't transfer to Tests.
Let's wait and see.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@chucknz said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp yet dmac doesn't have a better test or super record, why have different criteria?
Do you answer your own question with Razor and Mounga, they won more than any combo of 10 and coach, so either Foster couldn't get best out of Mounga or Dmac can't work with Razor
or, Test and Super ain't remotely the same sport any more.
I was very careful to say DMac will finish a better player. Wait 4 years and let's see. And quality may not just be on wins - RM got a rolls royce ride with that forward pack in Super. He was a cheat code at times, but it doesn't transfer to Tests.
Let's wait and see.
I don't agree he always got an armchair ride with his forward pack, the Chiefs pack was definitely stronger in 2023, it was more that with his insane vision and footwork he could literally dance around the weaker Super Rugby defenses but less weaknesses found in the top-tier international defenses and margins of error to exploit.
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@darylmitchell fair.
But any forward pack with Sam W in it ...
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@darylmitchell footwork yes, vision not so much.
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@reprobate said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@darylmitchell footwork yes, vision not so much.
Heads up vision for his running game was outstanding and passing vision was good.
Let down by his ability with the boot at times. -
I know it wasn't always the way, but DC often had the luxury of the weapon Nonu became outside him, while DC was in a league of his own, it meant Nonu was also a threat, so gave DC that extra split second of time.
Our recent 10s havent had the luxury of a Nonu or even SBW running outside them.
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@taniwharugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
I know it wasn't always the way, but DC often had the luxury of the weapon Nonu became outside him, while DC was in a league of his own, it meant Nonu was also a threat, so gave DC that extra split second of time.
Our recent 10s havent had the luxury of a Nonu or even SBW running outside them.
The 2024 ABs are a homeless man's 2015 ABs
