NPC Crowds
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@SouthernMann said in NPC Crowds:
@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
I disagree around some aspects. Thesse current Otago and Highlanders sides are the most 'local' sides I can remember being selected. In Otago, huge number of guys who have only played for the province. With the Highlanders high number of players who are aligned to Otago and Southland. In terms of they play for the Highlanders and 'still lose', the team that bet the Crusaders had eight or nine players 22 and younger. It is a development process and plan. With franchise V Otago. I watch every Otago game. Track club rugby, understand the player pathways and consider the depth chart of the province. But I'd much rather watch our guys in front of 20k fans and playing All Blacks than in front of 2k. Wiyhout the best players available. Otago, Southland the Highlanders are all part of the peocess. Take a guy like Aaron Smith for example, an Otago legend, through his Highlanders exploits who never played for Otago.
How the hell was Aaron Smith an Otago legend, he was a Manawatu boy, always aligned with Manawatu. I think many don't understand the difference between a province and a franchise. He could be a Highlander legend (Otago, Southland etc combined) , but never an Otago player.!
But agree how good it is that current Otago and Southland teams are mainly locals. -
@Dan54 said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann said in NPC Crowds:
@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
I disagree around some aspects. Thesse current Otago and Highlanders sides are the most 'local' sides I can remember being selected. In Otago, huge number of guys who have only played for the province. With the Highlanders high number of players who are aligned to Otago and Southland. In terms of they play for the Highlanders and 'still lose', the team that bet the Crusaders had eight or nine players 22 and younger. It is a development process and plan. With franchise V Otago. I watch every Otago game. Track club rugby, understand the player pathways and consider the depth chart of the province. But I'd much rather watch our guys in front of 20k fans and playing All Blacks than in front of 2k. Wiyhout the best players available. Otago, Southland the Highlanders are all part of the peocess. Take a guy like Aaron Smith for example, an Otago legend, through his Highlanders exploits who never played for Otago.
How the hell was Aaron Smith an Otago legend, he was a Manawatu boy, always aligned with Manawatu. I think many don't understand the difference between a province and a franchise. He could be a Highlander legend (Otago, Southland etc combined) , but never an Otago player.!
But agree how good it is that current Otago and Southland teams are mainly locals.I'm not suggesting he was an Otago player. But for all intents and purposes, he was a 14 year Dunedin resident. Who was, I'm pretty sure crowned Otago Sportsman of the year in 2021. He lived the Dunedin life. Supported the community and bought into the wider Otago way of life. For kids growing up in Dunedin, and the Otago region he was an idol. They didn't see him as a Manawatu man at all. They saw him as a Highlander, as a player who wore blue and gold. Same goes for Manawatu youngsters I'm sure too. He influenced two areas. I'm sure if you asked a young Otago halfback they would say Smith was a 'local' icon
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@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
@Bovidae
Exactly.
The Super rugby comp was thrown together quickly when the game went pro.
It was a response to other proposals that were being floated by non-establishment entities at the time.
Star players were signing with non-unions.SR had been a pre-season comp for the Auck well and Cant PUs.
It was the first serious rugby comp due up at the beginning of the pro rugby era.
The NZ AUS & SA unions grabbed it, revamped it a bit, added the the Chiefs and Highlanders (now involving all the NZ PUs—so they backed it).
As a top class international sporting comp it had intrinsic flaws, which overtime have shown themselves.
But the national unions were now in the pro rugby business!
They definitely were not thinking long term!In retrospect, probably a strategic mistake, but they had to do something quickly to head off the non-establishments.
If they had more time, and less outside pressure, I think things would have been done differently.
Probably would have gone with just the NPC and Currie Cup comps.
Both comps were strong, with teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
Originally SA fielded Currie Cup teams in Super rugby.An international program would have been fitted into breaks in extended NPC/Currie Cup seasons.
A more logical system than the current set up?Now NPC rugby is a shadow, and Super rugby is not far behind.
The chance to create a world class domestic pro comp in NZ has probably gone now, for good!
It looks like Rugby will end up with a similar model to that of New Zealand Cricket—elite national pro programs, but an essentially amateur domestic system, semi pro at best, underneath it.Has the creation of the SA franchises adversely impacted the Currie Cup?
If so, why hasn't it had the upstream effects on the Springboks' success?
Or is it just that they are enjoying a "Golden Generation" like we did in the 2010s, notwithstanding similar structural issues?
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@SouthernMann Fair enough mate, but I think that a case of split claims, most Manawatu youngsters would claim him though (I know all my whanau etc did), because he played NPC for Manawatu. I only meant he wasn't an Otago player ever, and Otago and Highlanders are different identities entirely.
Where it splits etc, Blues supporters always claimed Carlos , and everyone from the Nua always did same. Perofeta,Grindlay etc are similar, Blues players, but Naki NPC (and Grindlay actually plays club rugby here in Hawera) will always claim them.Nonone is wrong, and I see no problems at all, just gives more people players to identify with.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
i think the NPC needs to be appreciated and marketed as something to enjoy and celebrate in its own right, we dont go watch a club game just because we might see some up and comer, its enjoyable in it own right, stand in the sun with a beer somewhere often close to home and therefore easy.....
They do do that though. (Sans promoting the beer) and it’s still pretty poke. Watched the Waikato. Northland game last night and it is club rugby in disguise except they don’t have anyone watching it
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And the pro clubs and leagues fucking hate it!
Constantly bickering with national unions; the players being the meat in the sandwich.
The clubs actually own the players contracts as well, totally different scenario to down here.
The national union can pull a player out of the domestic comp here with barely a murmur from the franchise.
And out of the NPC for the entire comp!
Lets see the national unions in Europe try something like that.
If they did try, there would be a break away league being organised within a week! -
The Currie Cup went pretty much the same way as the NPC. It was spot the spectator.
Changed a bit now because their SR franchises now play the totally opposite season.
The SA rugby situation is very different to what we have in NZ now.
In the end they had more options moving forward than we did.And the present SA success at senior international level is probably due more to their style of play than their players.
The current rules, and they way they are interpreted, suit perfectly how they traditionally like to play the game.The same as when we were winning everything; it was the style of play - rather than the players.
High tempo, great ball handling; which other teams couldn't match.
Then the other teams got better, learnt how to shut us down, and that's where we are now. -
Hmmm.
This is probably the debate in a nutshell.
We are not even sure whose player Aaron Smith was.
And the gen public dont know, and dont even care!
So much for rugby tribalism.As an outsider i always considered him a Manawatu player.
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NZR need to shitcan the Wednesday fixture, it is a shit day for it, not conducive to attracting a crowd when most teams struggle even when they get prime slots, plus it makes that ridiculous 3 games in 8 days "storm week".
The teams do not play every other team, so drop one game and you remove the need for "storm week"
Super Rugby would never do it, RWC squads, particularly minnows were never happy with the 3 games in 15 days or whatever they got, but somehow npc which is by and large amateur has 4 games in 15 or 16 days and it's OK.
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@taniwharugby said in NPC Crowds:
NZR need to shitcan the Wednesday fixture, it is a shit day for it, not conducive to attracting a crowd when most teams struggle even when they get prime slots, plus it makes that ridiculous 3 games in 8 days "storm week".
On the official NPC site they never list the midweek teams and never have a match report. Even they don't care
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I enjoy the midweek game!, but only because it another game of rugby to watch. But do agree it not great, and would suggest when NPC gets trimmed./changed, that will be one of things that will go. In saying that I will go to Taranaki one.
But I continue to say,that's me I love the comp, and I know a few of you are pretty anti, and I can understand that. -
@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
And the pro clubs and leagues fucking hate it!
Constantly bickering with national unions; the players being the meat in the sandwich.
The clubs actually own the players contracts as well, totally different scenario to down here.
The national union can pull a player out of the domestic comp here with barely a murmur from the franchise.
And out of the NPC for the entire comp!
Lets see the national unions in Europe try something like that.
If they did try, there would be a break away league being organised within a week!Well I do agree the clubs in NH in many case don't like it, but they have to release their players more than the super clubs do, and same down here NPC is played during test season, and the coaches will tell you, it would be no use having players as they would be away training and plaing with ABs anyway, Would muck up teams too much. Understand your point mate, but no way is Europen club rugby one you should really use as an example, I don't think that is healthy for any sport, 2 many different people having control of players.
Just for me in no way lessens the enjoyment of the rugby. -
@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
Hmmm.
This is probably the debate in a nutshell.
We are not even sure whose player Aaron Smith was.
And the gen public dont know, and dont even care!
So much for rugby tribalism.As an outsider i always considered him a Manawatu player.
Well that debate is in almost every comp in world isn't it? Smith is rightly claimed by different areas, is that bad or good?
Just heard Cody Taylor on radio this morning, he a Canterbury.Crusaders' player, but still considers himelf (and Tosi who he talked about) as Levin boys. And Levin still claim him, that's good isn't it?
And that has been case as long as I have followed game when players moved provinces etc. F*** me the Jordie Barrett is a has played for Canterbury etc and now Canes, you will still see him standing on sidelines wating Naki play when he got time off. And try and tell anyone Barretts aren't Naki boys. -
Should it even exist anymore is prob the question?
Tough one, but if nobody is going is it generating revenue? What are the tv viewings like?
Outside the fern, I know nobody that watches. When I speak to ppl at home they know epl, they know f1, they know golf tournaments, they know nba and other US sports., they don' t know NPC.
Rugby is super + ABs.
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@MajorRage said in NPC Crowds:
Should it even exist anymore is prob the question?
Tough one, but if nobody is going is it generating revenue? What are the tv viewings like?
Outside the fern, I know nobody that watches. When I speak to ppl at home they know epl, they know f1, they know golf tournaments, they know nba and other US sports.
Rugby is super + ABs.
Putting it bluntly every year a bunch of NPC fans die and they aren't being replaced in the same numbers
The problems are deeper than that too. Look at the self selected group of people we have here.. obviously people here are bigger fans than the general population. Think of the people who are posting regularly, say at least once a week. Plenty of those people will post about how much they love the NPC, or prefer it to other levels etc etc. Now look at what they post about. Very little chat in NPC threads about upcoming games, current performances etc. Yet those posters are talking about the ABs and/or SR. In fact many of the NPC posts are just making a pithy comment about the current AB side or discussing next years SR selections
So when I see TSFers make comments about the NPC it is always worth comparing it to what they actually talk about. Revealed preferences vs stated preferences
It's in a death spiral. I'll repeat myself but both SR and NPC aren't good fits for the geographic spread of talent/fans/revenue. I'd prefer a single coherent comp. 14 teams is too many, 5 teams is too few
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@Duluth said in NPC Crowds:
It's in a death spiral. I'll repeat myself but both SR and NPC aren't good fits for the geographic spread of talent/fans/revenue. I'd prefer a single coherent comp. 14 teams is too many, 5 teams is too few
definitely agree
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@Duluth said in NPC Crowds:
I'd prefer a single coherent comp. 14 teams is too many, 5 teams is too few
How many pro players can we actually afford? Because 5 seems too many right now.
You have to deal with the jumble of
International
Super
NPC
Clubsand fit it into some sort of meaningful calendar, that doesn't burn out players. The top level goes from Feb (Super) to November (NH tour). It's nuts.
Now SA has gone, I'd be arguing for separating the pro and amateur game, have the NPC as a development comp, block out time for various games (NPC+club saturday/sunday afternoons primarily, Super Fri/Sat nights except where there are no games in NZ). Then you only have to worry about fitting Super around Internationals - and you can find ways of doing that. It's crazy that right now there are these gaps for high level sport with no games on at a weekend. It makes no sense to me.
You could even play NPC as curtain raisers to Super games - nothing prepares you for a good game of footy like a good game of footy
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@nzzp said in NPC Crowds:
@Duluth said in NPC Crowds:
I'd prefer a single coherent comp. 14 teams is too many, 5 teams is too few
How many pro players can we actually afford? Because 5 seems too many right now.
You have to deal with the jumble of
International
Super
NPC
Clubsand fit it into some sort of meaningful calendar, that doesn't burn out players. The top level goes from Feb (Super) to November (NH tour). It's nuts.
Now SA has gone, I'd be arguing for separating the pro and amateur game, have the NPC as a development comp, block out time for various games (NPC+club saturday/sunday afternoons primarily, Super Fri/Sat nights except where there are no games in NZ). Then you only have to worry about fitting Super around Internationals - and you can find ways of doing that. It's crazy that right now there are these gaps for high level sport with no games on at a weekend. It makes no sense to me.
You could even play NPC as curtain raisers to Super games - nothing prepares you for a good game of footy like a good game of footy
im afraid guys just arent going to commit to club and NPC if theyre both amateur and if they are they'll have to go back to tuesday/thursday night training because guys have to pay the bills...
