NPC Crowds
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@nzzp said in NPC Crowds:
@Nepia said in NPC Crowds:
Also the Auckland team only appears to have a couple of Brooke's and a Sotutu from outside the area,.
...and King Carlos of course
One year too soon, Foxy was there in 1993.
@Bovidae Cheers, forgot he was a Wellingtonian.
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@nzzp said in NPC Crowds:
@Nepia said in NPC Crowds:
Also the Auckland team only appears to have a couple of Brooke's and a Sotutu from outside the area,.
...and King Carlos of course
And as a former Nua man didn't I know it,. They actually went after a couple of Nua players. Cullen was also taken etc, Mark Shaw. Geez the like of Frank Oliver etc moved around quite a bit, it's always been the case. There has always been poaching , but obviously more sonce game went pro. Comparing anything with 1993 is perhaps wasting our time really. Hell Super was basically made up of players from local provinces up until 2011. Hell in the early late 80s/ 90s apart from Carlos and Cullen , we had at least another 3 players off top of my head that resided in the Nua and played in Wellington or Manawatu!
You remember All Black lock Murray Pierce? Played for Wellington while AB always lived in the Nua. Anyone who thinks it anything new in the NPC has not been following game very long!
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@Bovidae
Exactly.
The Super rugby comp was thrown together quickly when the game went pro.
It was a response to other proposals that were being floated by non-establishment entities at the time.
Star players were signing with non-unions.SR had been a pre-season comp for the Auck well and Cant PUs.
It was the first serious rugby comp due up at the beginning of the pro rugby era.
The NZ AUS & SA unions grabbed it, revamped it a bit, added the the Chiefs and Highlanders (now involving all the NZ PUs—so they backed it).
As a top class international sporting comp it had intrinsic flaws, which overtime have shown themselves.
But the national unions were now in the pro rugby business!
They definitely were not thinking long term!In retrospect, probably a strategic mistake, but they had to do something quickly to head off the non-establishments.
If they had more time, and less outside pressure, I think things would have been done differently.
Probably would have gone with just the NPC and Currie Cup comps.
Both comps were strong, with teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
Originally SA fielded Currie Cup teams in Super rugby.An international program would have been fitted into breaks in extended NPC/Currie Cup seasons.
A more logical system than the current set up?Now NPC rugby is a shadow, and Super rugby is not far behind.
The chance to create a world class domestic pro comp in NZ has probably gone now, for good!
It looks like Rugby will end up with a similar model to that of New Zealand Cricket—elite national pro programs, but an essentially amateur domestic system, semi pro at best, underneath it. -
@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
and Harbour
More players in the last amateur AB side than any other union - Jones, Barry, Little, Bunce, Rush, Osbourne Those in bold scored 3/4 tries. Who else but Jonah got the other?
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@Dan54 said in NPC Crowds:
@Kiwiwomble I suppose could say the same with super. I genuinely think those that follow the NPC do so because they support their team, and not just there t0 see players who will go higher, but as with super any team you support (and at club level) you want players from your team to step up to next level. Well I do and most I speak to do.
I do think games we watch as a neutral is probably where you got more interest on who will step up**. I have commented a few times on Otago and Southland and how happy Jamie Joseph will be etc, though Southern man ,yourself etc would no doubt be looking at how team going against rivals and ladder etc first.**
The comp can be enjoyed for more then one reason I think.
I can assure you I at most Naki games and crowd is there to watch the Naki win firstly and foremost!The development of the lads is my top interest during the NPC. Results very much secondary. Knowing that the young players identified as leading the Landers are showing rapid improvement is massively reassuring. I'd much rather see that than four or five ring ins dominate, the team win and the young landers not move forward.
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@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
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Right!
From a purely commercial point of view, and that is how it is nowdays, very easy to hype up and promote a side with six current All Blacks!
The lack of current All Blacks in the present NPC just cruels it as a legit sports competition.
Take the star top 30 or so players out of it for 3 or 4 months - Crazy business model!
None of the other football codes would ever do anything like this.
And general joe public is now very aware, and not buying defective product. -
Haha
Yeah it is fucked up, and been that way for awhile.
But it looks like it is going to sort of come to a head in the next few seasons.Highlanders/Otago probably highlights the problem more than most.
There is no way the Highlanders could survive without large outside financial support.
It kind of is just "jobs for the boys", and most of them just leave town after they have been paid.
Imagine if they just gave all that money directly to the Otago RU instead, and let them spread the love around.
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@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
Right!
From a purely commercial point of view, and that is how it is nowdays, very easy to hype up and promote a side with six current All Blacks!
The lack of current All Blacks in the present NPC just cruels it as a legit sports competition.
Take the star top 30 or so players out of it for 3 or 4 months - Crazy business model!
None of the other football codes would ever do anything like this.
And general joe public is now very aware, and not buying defective product.You obviously haven't seen how it goes up north when 6Ns is on! They play without their internationals,probably without top 180 players. Same as our clubs that are without super players.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
I disagree around some aspects. Thesse current Otago and Highlanders sides are the most 'local' sides I can remember being selected. In Otago, huge number of guys who have only played for the province. With the Highlanders high number of players who are aligned to Otago and Southland. In terms of they play for the Highlanders and 'still lose', the team that bet the Crusaders had eight or nine players 22 and younger. It is a development process and plan. With franchise V Otago. I watch every Otago game. Track club rugby, understand the player pathways and consider the depth chart of the province. But I'd much rather watch our guys in front of 20k fans and playing All Blacks than in front of 2k. Wiyhout the best players available. Otago, Southland the Highlanders are all part of the peocess. Take a guy like Aaron Smith for example, an Otago legend, through his Highlanders exploits who never played for Otago.
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@SouthernMann said in NPC Crowds:
@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
I disagree around some aspects. Thesse current Otago and Highlanders sides are the most 'local' sides I can remember being selected. In Otago, huge number of guys who have only played for the province. With the Highlanders high number of players who are aligned to Otago and Southland. In terms of they play for the Highlanders and 'still lose', the team that bet the Crusaders had eight or nine players 22 and younger. It is a development process and plan. With franchise V Otago. I watch every Otago game. Track club rugby, understand the player pathways and consider the depth chart of the province. But I'd much rather watch our guys in front of 20k fans and playing All Blacks than in front of 2k. Wiyhout the best players available. Otago, Southland the Highlanders are all part of the peocess. Take a guy like Aaron Smith for example, an Otago legend, through his Highlanders exploits who never played for Otago.
How the hell was Aaron Smith an Otago legend, he was a Manawatu boy, always aligned with Manawatu. I think many don't understand the difference between a province and a franchise. He could be a Highlander legend (Otago, Southland etc combined) , but never an Otago player.!
But agree how good it is that current Otago and Southland teams are mainly locals. -
@Dan54 said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann said in NPC Crowds:
@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
@SouthernMann theyre not mutually exclusive though are they
also, for me at least...it does feel a little hollow if those guys and the highlanders still lose....im kind of like "whats the point"....literally just giving these guys jobs...but we watch them go out and lose
it also illustrates the division in the rugby fans, you've obviously prioritised the Highlanders over Otago....where i would go the other way...and part of that is Otago has even more local players than the highlanders which still feels like a veneer over the top of local rugby
....its all just fucked up
I disagree around some aspects. Thesse current Otago and Highlanders sides are the most 'local' sides I can remember being selected. In Otago, huge number of guys who have only played for the province. With the Highlanders high number of players who are aligned to Otago and Southland. In terms of they play for the Highlanders and 'still lose', the team that bet the Crusaders had eight or nine players 22 and younger. It is a development process and plan. With franchise V Otago. I watch every Otago game. Track club rugby, understand the player pathways and consider the depth chart of the province. But I'd much rather watch our guys in front of 20k fans and playing All Blacks than in front of 2k. Wiyhout the best players available. Otago, Southland the Highlanders are all part of the peocess. Take a guy like Aaron Smith for example, an Otago legend, through his Highlanders exploits who never played for Otago.
How the hell was Aaron Smith an Otago legend, he was a Manawatu boy, always aligned with Manawatu. I think many don't understand the difference between a province and a franchise. He could be a Highlander legend (Otago, Southland etc combined) , but never an Otago player.!
But agree how good it is that current Otago and Southland teams are mainly locals.I'm not suggesting he was an Otago player. But for all intents and purposes, he was a 14 year Dunedin resident. Who was, I'm pretty sure crowned Otago Sportsman of the year in 2021. He lived the Dunedin life. Supported the community and bought into the wider Otago way of life. For kids growing up in Dunedin, and the Otago region he was an idol. They didn't see him as a Manawatu man at all. They saw him as a Highlander, as a player who wore blue and gold. Same goes for Manawatu youngsters I'm sure too. He influenced two areas. I'm sure if you asked a young Otago halfback they would say Smith was a 'local' icon
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@mohikamo said in NPC Crowds:
@Bovidae
Exactly.
The Super rugby comp was thrown together quickly when the game went pro.
It was a response to other proposals that were being floated by non-establishment entities at the time.
Star players were signing with non-unions.SR had been a pre-season comp for the Auck well and Cant PUs.
It was the first serious rugby comp due up at the beginning of the pro rugby era.
The NZ AUS & SA unions grabbed it, revamped it a bit, added the the Chiefs and Highlanders (now involving all the NZ PUs—so they backed it).
As a top class international sporting comp it had intrinsic flaws, which overtime have shown themselves.
But the national unions were now in the pro rugby business!
They definitely were not thinking long term!In retrospect, probably a strategic mistake, but they had to do something quickly to head off the non-establishments.
If they had more time, and less outside pressure, I think things would have been done differently.
Probably would have gone with just the NPC and Currie Cup comps.
Both comps were strong, with teams with long legacies and traditions going back over a century.
Originally SA fielded Currie Cup teams in Super rugby.An international program would have been fitted into breaks in extended NPC/Currie Cup seasons.
A more logical system than the current set up?Now NPC rugby is a shadow, and Super rugby is not far behind.
The chance to create a world class domestic pro comp in NZ has probably gone now, for good!
It looks like Rugby will end up with a similar model to that of New Zealand Cricket—elite national pro programs, but an essentially amateur domestic system, semi pro at best, underneath it.Has the creation of the SA franchises adversely impacted the Currie Cup?
If so, why hasn't it had the upstream effects on the Springboks' success?
Or is it just that they are enjoying a "Golden Generation" like we did in the 2010s, notwithstanding similar structural issues?
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@SouthernMann Fair enough mate, but I think that a case of split claims, most Manawatu youngsters would claim him though (I know all my whanau etc did), because he played NPC for Manawatu. I only meant he wasn't an Otago player ever, and Otago and Highlanders are different identities entirely.
Where it splits etc, Blues supporters always claimed Carlos , and everyone from the Nua always did same. Perofeta,Grindlay etc are similar, Blues players, but Naki NPC (and Grindlay actually plays club rugby here in Hawera) will always claim them.Nonone is wrong, and I see no problems at all, just gives more people players to identify with.
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@Kiwiwomble said in NPC Crowds:
i think the NPC needs to be appreciated and marketed as something to enjoy and celebrate in its own right, we dont go watch a club game just because we might see some up and comer, its enjoyable in it own right, stand in the sun with a beer somewhere often close to home and therefore easy.....
They do do that though. (Sans promoting the beer) and it’s still pretty poke. Watched the Waikato. Northland game last night and it is club rugby in disguise except they don’t have anyone watching it
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And the pro clubs and leagues fucking hate it!
Constantly bickering with national unions; the players being the meat in the sandwich.
The clubs actually own the players contracts as well, totally different scenario to down here.
The national union can pull a player out of the domestic comp here with barely a murmur from the franchise.
And out of the NPC for the entire comp!
Lets see the national unions in Europe try something like that.
If they did try, there would be a break away league being organised within a week! -
The Currie Cup went pretty much the same way as the NPC. It was spot the spectator.
Changed a bit now because their SR franchises now play the totally opposite season.
The SA rugby situation is very different to what we have in NZ now.
In the end they had more options moving forward than we did.And the present SA success at senior international level is probably due more to their style of play than their players.
The current rules, and they way they are interpreted, suit perfectly how they traditionally like to play the game.The same as when we were winning everything; it was the style of play - rather than the players.
High tempo, great ball handling; which other teams couldn't match.
Then the other teams got better, learnt how to shut us down, and that's where we are now. -
Hmmm.
This is probably the debate in a nutshell.
We are not even sure whose player Aaron Smith was.
And the gen public dont know, and dont even care!
So much for rugby tribalism.As an outsider i always considered him a Manawatu player.
