All Blacks 2024
-
@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2024:
I am trying to work out what's gone so wrong with our backline.
These are my guesses.
-
Aging players are kept in the squad when once upon a time two bad performances would have led to the selectors hitting the ejector seat button.
-
Some of our backs ain't fast enough.
-
Our backs ain't spending enough time together on the training paddock working on combinations, attacking angles and the timing of passes.
I'd welcome other suggestions.
Our backline attack has completely stagnated since having BB at 10.
I may seem obsessed with this notion since it's all I've posted recently..but it's infuriating to see something eventuate that seemed so obvious from the outside.
Beauden has never looked good against the rush. He has a horrible passing game, he doesn't run flat to draw in defenders and free the outside backs. He telegraphs his passes and shovels it on, it's just trash. And our attack greatly suffers.
Amazing how we were consistently getting around rush defense with Dmac at 10 (someone with an actual passing game), and it's suddenly disappeared again with BB back.
I'm just in disbelief he is still getting picked to start at 10.
Honestly he must be the most charming person on the planet off the field to keep getting picked.
Yeah this is just so baffling. Beauden has never been a good 10 in the true sense of the role. I'm not trying to be overly critical of him there as I'm actually a massive fan. He has been outstanding for us in the past and despite what people say, he deserved to be world player of the year in his prime. But his prime was based around his explosive speed off the mark, exploiting half gaps, and his eye for an opportunity. He didn't win us games from 10 by controlling the match and setting his outsides away, he won us games by creating and scoring tries out of fucking nothing on a regular basis, blowing tight test matches wide open.
At this stage of his career, that explosive speed off the mark is no longer there, so he has now become an extremely limited player at 10. At fullback he is still good, as his eye for an opportunity is still there and he has enough pace to exploit chances he sees with the extra space, but at 10 he really doesn't offer anything at all.
Then when you look at the selections, the coaches absolutely made their bed with DMac, played him in every game and asked a huge amount of him. And he responded by growing into the role, and being central to basically ALL of our positive play in the backs. Then they inexplicably drop him for the last test against the Wallabies, and after that suddenly Beauden is the man again? Based off what exactly?
I think this all points to a head coach that is woefully out of his depth at test level.
-
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
Then they inexplicably drop him for the last test against the Wallabies, and after that suddenly Beauden is the man again? Based off what exactly?
what makes this even worse is, the best performance by a 10 all tour was DMac in tough conditions v Ireland. And it didn't make a lick of difference, BB was back for the next two weeks, with absolutely predictable results.
DMac with all that first half ball and territory and set piece dominance v France? We are out of sight at half time.
-
On the forwards, I think people are being far too generous. I made this comment in the Italy thread but it's better for here - our front row and hookers are great, our locks good though the captain has not been playing very well, and our loose forwards are an absolute shambles due to very poor selections and game plan. I'd be loathe to give them more than a C+ in the forwards based on that.
-
you may be right but it feels a bit harsh.
The set piece has been really good, the scrum strong despite newbie front rowers, ad the lineout better than it has any real right to be.
Around the track they've been saved by Sititi I think, and then the running game of Patty T off the bench.They were well beaten by the French pack in the 2nd half a week ago.
My opinion is the use and timing of substitutions has really hurt us. Guys are playing far too many minutes, quality of those minutes be damned. I feel like any sub in the last 10 is a complete waste of a player unless the guy on the field is totally cooked (in which case you have fucked up by not making the switch 10 minutes earlier).
Razor obviously feels that some players need to be on the field no matter what, which is why guys like Taylor, Savea, Cane, ScoBa play big minutes. This totally flies in the face of what appears to be working elsewhere, where fresh forwards are given 30-35 minutes to make a real difference in the game. We stubbornly stick to old school thinking.
-
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
First Five, may need to tweak the game plan to factor that neither BB or DMac are great playmakers. Boks have played great rugby with Pollard at 10, so food for thought as to whether you need a running first five. Hard to see how Jacomb makes inroads sitting behind DMac, Plummer is overseas, the Canes and Crusaders 10s don’t seem to be there. Not going to pretend like I’m not a bit biased, but it Millar has a solid season, when the music stops he might be the last one standing.
Yeah. Millar is definitely the solution.
Do you watch any Chiefs games? Dmac is magic at putting others into space. Our poor attack systems don't take advantage of his capabilities.
I’m meaning as a pure squad option, he might be the beneficiary as last man standing. What Millar could possibly provide though, is game management and elite punting, which is where both Barrett and DMac have struggled this year.
McKenzie is a moments player, and he might well be the best we have got, but we won’t win a World Cup with him at 10. He is too hit and miss to get away with in tournament play IMO. He has thrived in the impact roll as has Barrett. Neither really grasped that starting 10 role, McKenzie was dropped after flattering to deceive in SA and Bledisloe One. The idea that he solves our issues is the Sotutu argument all over again.
The guy who isn’t playing isn’t always a better solution, sometimes the issue is there is no solution, and to me it is abundantly clear that we don’t have a 10 capable of running a game on his own, so there are three options.
A) Wait for the next guy to come along/pray Mo’unga finds a new gear
Continue with the inconsistency Barrett and DMac provideC) Alter the gameplan to remove the burden from the 10. With Roigard at 9, and Barrett at 12 I think this is a legitimate option. France play a lot off Dupont with a limited 10 outside him, and the Boks have succeeded with a pack going well and Pollard running the basics. It is possible I think, that with everything run well around him, should he continue to take steps forward Millar, or a Cashmore or another first five in that mould could be a stop gap. With them begging Mo’unga back, and taking Jacomb with the NZ XV they clearly aren’t going to go this way though I don’t think.
-
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
On the forwards, I think people are being far too generous. I made this comment in the Italy thread but it's better for here - our front row and hookers are great, our locks good though the captain has not been playing very well, and our loose forwards are an absolute shambles due to very poor selections and game plan. I'd be loathe to give them more than a C+ in the forwards based on that.
The tight five has gone way better than anyone expected this year, and the loose trio is undergoing repairs.
As I say, reckon long-term to balance it we need a smashing blindside, but more than anything, we probably need to make a slight tactical tweak to have one of the locks or loose forwards smashing more rucks when he have the . Holland I believe hit the most rucks per game of any NZ lock in SR, so could help solve the issues.
-
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
-
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
limited 10 outside him
wait what? Ramos is a terrific player
Terrific fullback, but a limited first five in the sense he is not a natural first receiver
-
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Not talking about Barrett as a playmaker, but more so his big ranging boot. It is how you use the tools.
-
-
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
let’s see what Super Rugby brings
Why? Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to selection to the ABs
that entire post could have been made 12 months ago
and yet here we are, still wheeling out the 2023 All Blacks
Quite possibly, yes, but I think as fans we are often guilty of wanting to change too much too quickly.
Look at the Wallabies under Eddie Jones, dropped a whole lot of established players, picked ordinary ones, and it actually got worse.
I think it is eminently possible, that most of the guys currently in the 24-29 age range in NZ aren’t actually that good (in line with the results of the U20s). Which is why the ABs are playing order guys who used to be good.
-
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
-
I didn’t mind some of the back play/patterns we employed against the English. Seemed to deal with their rush defence well and created opportunities. While Richie Mo has never quite clicked at intl level, I think he found a point of balance just doing the basics well at the WC. I do like the thought of Roigard, Mo’unga, Jordie, Leicester F, Caleb (left), Jordan (right and either DMac or BB at FB. We could then blood some players like Proctor, Love etc and let the cream rise to the top. Backline currently feels unbalanced, ironically that was my gripe with the loosies, but Sititi seems to have settled that balance with his dynamic play but ability to do tight stuff (need to resolve post-Cane of course).
-
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
-
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Not talking about Barrett as a playmaker, but more so his big ranging boot. It is how you use the tools.
Out shit field kicking and touch finding (occasional DMac aside) really grinds my gears. Aussie have always been better at this - AFL influence maybe? And the European teams seem to get a lot more distance than us too.
-
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
coughsotutucough
the jordie "big boot" barrett idea....maybe 4 years ago...but like anything if you dont use something if atrophies....if he still have ths canon...and has started all/most games....why not use it?
-
@frugby Fakatava plays his own game, often to the detriment of his own team.
Our halfbacks will be just fine as long as the forwards provide some go-forward and quality ball at the ruck. Roigard had the same issues Ratima was criticised for in the previous tests, because he was harassed by the Italians.
A problem for me is that some of the current ABs won't necessarily be playing in that same position for their SR teams. Think Sititi at the Chiefs, BB at the Blues and maybe even Lakai at the Hurricanes. I've no idea where MP will play Savea. It probably won't matter to Robertson though.
-
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
