Substitution Bench - Thoughts
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@chimoaus that cant be something we seriously take into consideration, if anything it might make us actually start some of these guys more, if we've had to run a prop for 80 mins because we've had injuries elsewhere that used our subs...then he gets a week off and the next guy gets a start
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sucks to be you. happened to me as well at rep level. If we are avoiding changes to stop hurt feelings then we aren't really governing.
It happens to elite soccer players all the time.
And this rule doesn't have to apply to all levels. Shit some grades have rolling subs. But at the elite level it can be implemented.
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@mariner4life said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
Yes mods, i know this is not the thread, feel free to move.
Ask and ye shall receive. Good thread idea, regardless.
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I'm way harsher. I think subs bench are for injuries only, with only one from the front row being allowed to be replaced. If you then get an injury in the front row, then if the first injury replacement is cleared (blood / head etc) they can come back, or you go down a man.
At the end of the match if the official deem the team to be gaming the rules, then all of them are suspended.
I fucking hate the bomb squad, hate it. It elevates rugby's main problem (size) to the next level.
Don't have a problem with the Saffa's for it, they are playing within the rules. But I hate it. It's pretty much so why I'm happy MR jnr doesn't like playing rugby.
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@MajorRage said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
I'm way harsher. I think subs bench are for injuries only, with only one from the front row being allowed to be replaced. If you then get an injury in the front row, then if the first injury replacement is cleared (blood / head etc) they can come back, or you go down a man.
At the end of the match if the official deem the team to be gaming the rules, then all of them are suspended.
I fucking hate the bomb squad, hate it. It elevates rugby's main problem (size) to the next level.
Don't have a problem with the Saffa's for it, they are playing within the rules. But I hate it. It's pretty much so why I'm happy MR jnr doesn't like playing rugby.
I think it should be encouraged. De Allende will try a scissors move with Am and they’ll collide and smash their kneecaps in…..
The Boks, having selected an unprecedented eight man bench of forwards, will have to put on a midfield of Bongi Mbonambi and Ox Nche.
David Havilii will run in a second half hat trick and the ABs will win comfortably.
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@mariner4life said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
Every code i follow has actively worked to reduce the impact of the interchange. AFL has imposed limits. The NRL decreased the number of changes.
I totally get the 8 on the bench in rugby though. Scrums need to be a part of the game, and you can't lose them due to injury. THe problem is they added a substitution for the front row, and made the overall problem worse (look, i know, a surprise that a rugby change had a huge negative impact elsewhere).
I still think you should have 8 on the bench, but you should only be able to use say 5 of them. And if you make 5 changes and then lose a front rower then you play short. Being able to sub, even on a normal 5-3 split, 80% of your biggest players, and one of your loose forwards, and more than half of your team, is absolutely ridiculous.
Yes mods, i know this is not the thread, feel free to move.
I have to say, that I agree with almost every word of this post Mariner. I so would love to see us go back to where aerobic fitness and skill are more important than anerobic fitness and size are the judgement of players abilities! It's supposed to be a game ofr all shapes and sizes.
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@MajorRage said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
I'm way harsher. I think subs bench are for injuries only, with only one from the front row being allowed to be replaced. If you then get an injury in the front row, then if the first injury replacement is cleared (blood / head etc) they can come back, or you go down a man.
At the end of the match if the official deem the team to be gaming the rules, then all of them are suspended.
I fucking hate the bomb squad, hate it. It elevates rugby's main problem (size) to the next level.
Don't have a problem with the Saffa's for it, they are playing within the rules. But I hate it. It's pretty much so why I'm happy MR jnr doesn't like playing rugby.
So uncontested scrums?
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This discussion keeps on coming back and coming back.
This is from 2016.
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@MiketheSnow said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@MajorRage said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
I'm way harsher. I think subs bench are for injuries only, with only one from the front row being allowed to be replaced. If you then get an injury in the front row, then if the first injury replacement is cleared (blood / head etc) they can come back, or you go down a man.
At the end of the match if the official deem the team to be gaming the rules, then all of them are suspended.
I fucking hate the bomb squad, hate it. It elevates rugby's main problem (size) to the next level.
Don't have a problem with the Saffa's for it, they are playing within the rules. But I hate it. It's pretty much so why I'm happy MR jnr doesn't like playing rugby.
So uncontested scrums?
No. Sizes should drop so it’s not ridiculously dangerous.
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@MajorRage said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@MiketheSnow said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@MajorRage said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
I'm way harsher. I think subs bench are for injuries only, with only one from the front row being allowed to be replaced. If you then get an injury in the front row, then if the first injury replacement is cleared (blood / head etc) they can come back, or you go down a man.
At the end of the match if the official deem the team to be gaming the rules, then all of them are suspended.
I fucking hate the bomb squad, hate it. It elevates rugby's main problem (size) to the next level.
Don't have a problem with the Saffa's for it, they are playing within the rules. But I hate it. It's pretty much so why I'm happy MR jnr doesn't like playing rugby.
So uncontested scrums?
No. Sizes should drop so it’s not ridiculously dangerous.
In the present climate there's absolutely no way that a contestable scrum will take place without a full complement of specialised front rowers
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Take a leaf out of Louis van Gaal's book. Every 5 minutes you get a sub window where you can put in one new player but have to pull two guys.
That'll make space on the field!
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Totally agree. Which I believe is a fundamental issue.
Either that or we are happy with the slow evolution to NFL.
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I’d vote for sides having 5 replacements with their positions designated, one for each front row position and then a utility forward and a utility back.
I don’t see it happening though.
In lots of countries, Rugby’s main competitor in the entertainment market is NFL so it’s no real surprise to see the game as it chases cash becoming more and more like NFL.
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MiketheSnowreplied to MajorRage on 31 Aug 2023, 13:06 last edited by MiketheSnow 31 Aug 2023, 13:07
@MajorRage said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
Totally agree. Which I believe is a fundamental issue.
Either that or we are happy with the slow evolution to NFL.
Pre 1942 American Football when it was double platoon with players playing both offence and defence maybe
The opportunity to speed up the game is there
World Rugby are just glacial when it comes to change
First thing they can do is employ the injury protocol in Association Football
If a player requires medical attention on the field, the game is stopped
Then once they have been attended to they have to leave the field and cannot return until the next stop of play
That's good for 5-10 mins each match for starters
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I wonder if we will ever see genuine utility types that can play loose forward / wing for example.
Victor Vito type athletes that are trained to cover backline positions
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@kiwiinmelb said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
I wonder if we will ever see genuine utility types that can play loose forward / wing for example.
Victor Vito type athletes that are trained to cover backline positions
Pierre Spies will be plotting a comeback as we speak
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@kiwiinmelb said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
I wonder if we will ever see genuine utility types that can play loose forward / wing for example.
Victor Vito type athletes that are trained to cover backline positions
Ardie?
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@MajorRage said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@kiwiinmelb said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
I wonder if we will ever see genuine utility types that can play loose forward / wing for example.
Victor Vito type athletes that are trained to cover backline positions
Ardie?
He played club rugby at 15 very recently. Should be fine to play there against the minnows
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@MN5 said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@MajorRage said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@kiwiinmelb said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
I wonder if we will ever see genuine utility types that can play loose forward / wing for example.
Victor Vito type athletes that are trained to cover backline positions
Ardie?
He played club rugby at 15 very recently. Should be fine to play there against the minnows
From lock to fullback is there nothing that man can't do?
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I loved Eddie’s response in his presser
SA think it’s the best for them
Follow suit or find a better/different way
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SBW was a 6 then 12..I'm guessing Jordie could do the reverse
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Didn't Jonah play a few games in the forwards during his time, I seem to remember him carving it up from 8?
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@chimoaus said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
Didn't Jonah play a few games in the forwards during his time, I seem to remember him carving it up from 8?
First class starts all at wing: https://www.rugbyhistory.co.nz/player/jonah-tali-lomu
Hart put him at 8 for a few scrums. There was also invitational game (John Kirwan benefit match?) where he played 8. Maybe there was other Baabaa matches?
Otherwise I think it was schoolboys
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Macalou from France cover forwards and backs OK as does Botia from Fiji. Kwagga Smith can too. Sami Finau has back 3 experience too I believe. But few others in NZ
I like it when 9 can cover wing well. Leroy Carter is prime example. But Cam Roigard may have the skills too.
That all said I hate this trend towards a 6 2 bench. I wish they would reduce the numbers overall... -
@Duluth said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@chimoaus said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
Didn't Jonah play a few games in the forwards during his time, I seem to remember him carving it up from 8?
First class starts all at wing: https://www.rugbyhistory.co.nz/player/jonah-tali-lomu
Hart put him at 8 for a few scrums. There was also invitational game (John Kirwan benefit match?) where he played 8. Maybe there was other Baabaa matches?
Otherwise I think it was schoolboys
Ah yes, that was the game I was thinking of.
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Eric Rush back in the day. He'd be too small as a flanker today.
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@Bovidae said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
Eric Rush back in the day. He'd be too small as a flanker today.
He was too small then.
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@sparky said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@chimoaus Jonah the Great played 8 for NZ schoolboys in a Test curtain-raiser. He scored a hat-trick at 6 for NZ barbarians in a farewell game for John Kirwan.
Trampled Tim Gavin for one if I remember rightly.
I do recall him packing down at 8 in a canes game and Murray Mexted mentioning he just didn’t have the aerobic capacity to play in that position at a high level. He of all people would know.
But yeah in theory there’s been any number of those type of athletes who could play 6/8 or 11/12/13/14. Did Roy Kinikinilau ever play in the forwards ? You get the impression Victor Vito would have been a handy centre/wing….Vaea Fifita is the most recent example I can think of especially when he did this……
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No mention of Liam Messam in the centres yet?
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It was extremely remiss of me not to mention Scotland legend Richie Vernon, a forward at the 2011 WC then a back at the 2015 WC.
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Grant Fox said MJ could have played anywhere in the backline back in the day. And with his current size he's got the front row covered. So it's only really at lock he doesn't fit properly, but he did have a great vertical leap. So I'm ruling that MJ would be the best bench cover.
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@MN5 Havili with throw an intercept to Nche and will actually turn and chase.
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@MajorRage Jerry Collins was a six and often played 12 in club footy.
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Sotutu played in the backs at schoolboy and club level. I think he could make a genuine bench back cover player.
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@KiwiMurph wasn't he a 10?
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@MajorRage Jerry Collins was a six and often played 12 in club footy.
I bet all midfielders coming up against him learnt how to pass REALLY quickly.
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@sparky said in Substitution Bench - Thoughts:
@chimoaus Jonah the Great played 8 for NZ schoolboys in a Test curtain-raiser. He scored a hat-trick at 6 for NZ barbarians in a farewell game for John Kirwan.
Still my greatest lol moment in rugby that, he took the ball off the back of the scrum in his own 22 and ended up scoring under the posts.
Ran over the number 7, ran over the number 8, swatted off the halfback, out paced the first 5 and winger coming across in cover, last line of D was the fullback who set himself in a death or glory tackle.
Heard this enormous "crack" as the tackle was made an immediately thought in my head what a good tackle!
TV then shows fullback lying prone on the field while Johan trots off to score under the posts.
Poor fullback had to be stretchered off the field.
And thus Jonah's love affair with English fullbacks begun.
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