TdF 2023
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@Chester-Draws said in TdF 2023:
@antipodean said in TdF 2023:
I went to bed just before the last climb and watched the remainder this morning. How does anyone believe Vingegaard isn't doped to the eyeballs?
Vingegaard didn't ride particularly quickly. He was a full two minutes behind the winner. That Pogacar blew up, because he went too deep the day before, isn't proof that Vingegaard is doping! It is only proof that Pogacar tried too hard, in his desperation to win, and it didn't work.
Vingegaard hasn't been that dominant even. He has won one stage! For the first half of the tour Pogacar out-climbed him. So basically you are going to accuse him of doping because he is the leader.
Pogacar has even won a tour the same way. He won thanks to a fantastic time-trial in the last week, when all his opponents were exhausted. It is, literally, how you win the tour. Always has been.
Power figures don't lie.
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So no-one is allowed to be faster than before? Every time a record is broken, it must be a cheat?
Armstrong was a cheat. If you followed cycling you knew he was a drug cheat. He failed tests. He used dodgy doctors. His team mates said he used drugs.
Have you the slightest evidence that Vingegaard has any connection to drugs, other than magical statistics? About a guy who has only had one really good day? Who hasn't even been winning in the mountains!
A rider is winning an endurance race by being better at enduring, so he must be cheating?
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@Chester-Draws said in TdF 2023:
So no-one is allowed to be faster than before? Every time a record is broken, it must be a cheat?
Armstrong was a cheat. If you followed cycling you knew he was a drug cheat. He failed tests. He used dodgy doctors. His team mates said he used drugs.
Have you the slightest evidence that Vingegaard has any connection to drugs, other than magical statistics? About a guy who has only had one really good day? Who hasn't even been winning in the mountains!
A rider is winning an endurance race by being better at enduring, so he must be cheating?
When riders do the equivalent of riding Melbourne to Perth, up and down Everest five times, faster than anyone else has ever done it (including all the people doping) then my initial reaction isn't that they're eating steamed broccoli and skinless chicken breast, and having a good night's sleep.
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No shortage of speculation in the media about Jonas or Pog. You've pretty much got to suspend disbelief.
I quite like Pog....
When asked how he was in a post-race interview, Tadej responded: “Fucked.”
“It’s like I tried to eat as much as possible and it was like nothing was going into my legs, everything was just staying in my stomach. And I was really empty at the bottom of the climb,” he continued. “I just couldn’t go today. It was not a good day.”
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No shortage of speculation in the media about Jonas or Pog. You've pretty much got to suspend disbelief.
I quite like Pog....
When asked how he was in a post-race interview, Tadej responded: “Fucked.”
“It’s like I tried to eat as much as possible and it was like nothing was going into my legs, everything was just staying in my stomach. And I was really empty at the bottom of the climb,” he continued. “I just couldn’t go today. It was not a good day.”
I don’t really support either of Pog or JV but I think I’m leaning towards the Pog.
Those short interviews on YT are great this year.
Try to watch the one with Mohoric (stage winner yesterday). It’s an insight into how fragile those guys are three weeks into this race.
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@antipodean said in TdF 2023:
When riders do the equivalent of riding Melbourne to Perth, up and down Everest five times, faster than anyone else has ever done it (including all the people doping) then my initial reaction isn't that they're eating steamed broccoli and skinless chicken breast, and having a good night's sleep.
So no actual evidence then.
Whereas I know that all the current riders are tested during the tour, multiple times, and out of the tour, multiple times. That they have blood passports to stop blood doping. And that Jumbo Visma has never been accused of being dirty -- and want to keep it that way. And that the UCI knows that one more big doping scandal and it is spent, so has a real interest in keeping the sport clean.
Why do you even watch the sport if every good result is tainted in your eyes? (I actually watch no athletics, precisely for this reason.)
I'm sure there are dopers in cycling. But no-one can do it like they used to do it and keep a clean sheet. There's just too much testing.
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@Chester-Draws said in TdF 2023:
@antipodean said in TdF 2023:
When riders do the equivalent of riding Melbourne to Perth, up and down Everest five times, faster than anyone else has ever done it (including all the people doping) then my initial reaction isn't that they're eating steamed broccoli and skinless chicken breast, and having a good night's sleep.
So no actual evidence then.
There never was until there was. And until that date, we just had times nad power figures to point to.
Whereas I know that all the current riders are tested during the tour, multiple times, and out of the tour, multiple times. That they have blood passports to stop blood doping. And that Jumbo Visma has never been accused of being dirty -- and want to keep it that way. And that the UCI knows that one more big doping scandal and it is spent, so has a real interest in keeping the sport clean.
Why do you even watch the sport if every good result is tainted in your eyes? (I actually watch no athletics, precisely for this reason.)
Because to me it's the ultimate in bicycling physical endeavour and suffering.
I'm sure there are dopers in cycling. But no-one can do it like they used to do it and keep a clean sheet. There's just too much testing.
I remember they used to say that a decade and more ago as well.
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@Chester-Draws said in TdF 2023:
@antipodean said in TdF 2023:
When riders do the equivalent of riding Melbourne to Perth, up and down Everest five times, faster than anyone else has ever done it (including all the people doping) then my initial reaction isn't that they're eating steamed broccoli and skinless chicken breast, and having a good night's sleep.
So no actual evidence then.
7 W/kg for 20 minute climbs as standard, after 5hrs in the saddle in 30°C at 1000-2000m of altitude? When in the peak Armstrong doping era the best they could manage was a little over 6 W/kg?
Evidence enough for me, I'm afraid. Occam's Razor.
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@Chester-Draws said in TdF 2023:
@antipodean said in TdF 2023:
When riders do the equivalent of riding Melbourne to Perth, up and down Everest five times, faster than anyone else has ever done it (including all the people doping) then my initial reaction isn't that they're eating steamed broccoli and skinless chicken breast, and having a good night's sleep.
So no actual evidence then.
7 W/kg for 20 minute climbs as standard, after 5hrs in the saddle in 30°C at 1000-2000m of altitude? When in the peak Armstrong doping era the best they could manage was a little over 6 W/kg?
Evidence enough for me, I'm afraid. Occam's Razor.
It would be interesting to measure whether the average guys in the peleton have similarly improved proportionate to the average guys in Lance's day.
If it's down to equipment, nutrition and legitimate sports science, you'd expect the average guys to have a similar lift in performance - on the assumption that not everyone is doping today.
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@Chester-Draws said in TdF 2023:
@antipodean said in TdF 2023:
When riders do the equivalent of riding Melbourne to Perth, up and down Everest five times, faster than anyone else has ever done it (including all the people doping) then my initial reaction isn't that they're eating steamed broccoli and skinless chicken breast, and having a good night's sleep.
So no actual evidence then.
7 W/kg for 20 minute climbs as standard, after 5hrs in the saddle in 30°C at 1000-2000m of altitude? When in the peak Armstrong doping era the best they could manage was a little over 6 W/kg?
Evidence enough for me, I'm afraid. Occam's Razor.
It would be interesting to measure whether the average guys in the peleton have similarly improved proportionate to the average guys in Lance's day.
If it's down to equipment, nutrition and legitimate sports science, you'd expect the average guys to have a similar lift in performance - on the assumption that not everyone is doping today.
If pro cycling is now clean, why do records set by dopers keep on getting broken?
Pro cyclists keep getting faster decade after decade. Can improvements in training and tech take all the credit? Joe Laverick compares past and present
Some big tech and data changes but whether it is enough or not…
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Interesting article thanks. I find it amazing that 15 years ago they were basically just training as had been done for a century, with no data or innovation. I can easily see the increase if that is the case, but then you have the drop off in testing over CV years & no testing innovation!
