Argentina Australia at.... Twickenham?

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="570214" data-time="1459982453">
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I get that the money will be good, bit it doesn't sit well with me that this is part of the RC and being played in London. Any other time sure, but this is supposed to be a home-away comp that will grow the game in Argentina. This is a game the Argies would have a good chance of winning and shit, could even decide the champion. Imagine Scotland playing England in a 6N game in Sydney.
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This is a fair point. It is a decent advantage for Australia over New Zealand and South Africa.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="570190" data-time="1459968768">
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I was curious how many they got to that carnival game at a point where it was probably at saturation point following the RWC so an actual meaningful test is likely to attract a much better crowd.
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They got 35,000. I reckon Australia vs Argentina will get more, probably not a sell out though.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="570214" data-time="1459982453">
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 Imagine Scotland playing England in a 6N game in Sydney.
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I would probably go to that (and regret it).
 
Another metric would be comparing the difference in attendance Australia and the ABs did in Chicago. Australia aren't much of a draw overseas outside of the expats. All of the home unions have trounced them regularly over the past 10 years - so that important benchmark of beating them which England had in the early 00s and the other unions always had is no longer there.

Catogrande

No doubt that NZ is the draw card. They are the yardstick by which all others are measured and I'd suggest that anyone interested in rugby would pay to go and see NZ play if they were in their own back yard. But would they pay to go and see NZ play someone else (other than their own team) in their own back yard? Would they pay to go and see NZ play someone else in their own back yard yet again? Now double that for anyone who isn't the draw that NZ is.
 
To maintain any interest you have to have the fans invested in the actual teams to fill an 80K+ stadium again and again.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="570214" data-time="1459982453">
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I get that the money will be good, bit it doesn't sit well with me that this is part of the RC and being played in London. Any other time sure, but this is supposed to be a home-away comp that will grow the game in Argentina. This is a game the Argies would have a good chance of winning and shit, could even decide the champion. Imagine Scotland playing England in a 6N game in Sydney.
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I not sure thats 100% the idea.
 
Its designed to make Argentina competetive, commercially viable & retain access to their players. So showcasing Argentina in the UK is a good thing in that its a step towards Argentina joining the cash train that is the now standard EOYT that NZ SA, & Aussie embark on.
 
IE the Argies would very much like to become a permanant fixture playing some / all the 4 nations every Autumn. And then get the return fixture. And this is a good step towards that. It gives the Argies a chance to showcase their commercial value and their style of rugby. they get 50k at Twickers & produce a dazzling try fest the RFU will think "yeah... that might be a good team to play every year". They got a HUGE amount of press in the UK during the WC re the style they played & how great it was. Plus they can become a "warm up" team. EG pay for them to play the Lions at Twickers or Cardiff pre every Lions tour.
 
Its all about reinforcing the commercial viablity of Argentine rugby & getting them more competive games, which is also the idea of bringing them into the RC

Catogrande

Dunno about that Gollum. My perspective (which is obviously right and based upon my research related to four of my mates) is that the Home Nations and England in particular have valued Argentina for a long time. Commercially, whilst they have not been up there with Aus, SA and NZ they have been reasonably regular visitors to Twickenham (and vice-versa) and in general the turn out has been good. I could understand that the idea of re-enforcing the commerciality might be an aim in itself but they don't play in our tournament and we go to the matches when they are here, so where is the merit? If you're looking to improve the commerciality about the RC then it's doubtful that playing in another country would be the way forward. This is the marketing guys saying more is more and pissing on us as they do so. It's got sod all to do with the Home Nations and all to do with a quick buck.
 
Ok, so maybe I'm a traditionalist.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="570374" data-time="1460045702">
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Dunno about that Gollum. My perspective (which is obviously right and based upon my research related to four of my mates) is that the Home Nations and England in particular have valued Argentina for a long time. Commercially, whilst they have not been up there with Aus, SA and NZ they have been reasonably regular visitors to Twickenham (
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They've played England at Twickers 4 times since 2000. I'd hazard a guess Fiji have played there almost that much....

taniwharugby

Maybe the Argies wanna muscle in on the Lions...?

profitius

IMO it devalues the tournament. What they're saying subconsciously to people is they're more interested in money than trying to win the tournament.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="570377" data-time="1460055069">
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Maybe the Argies wanna muscle in on the Lions...?
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I reckon adding the Argies into a Lions touring cycle has some merits, perhaps they could tour every three years instead of four.
 
They woulda been cannon fodder years ago, now not so much.

MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="570374" data-time="1460045702">
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Dunno about that Gollum. My perspective (which is obviously right and based upon my research related to four of my mates) is that the Home Nations and England in particular have valued Argentina for a long time. Commercially, whilst they have not been up there with Aus, SA and NZ they have been reasonably regular visitors to Twickenham (and vice-versa) and in general the turn out has been good. I could understand that the idea of re-enforcing the commerciality might be an aim in itself but they don't play in our tournament and we go to the matches when they are here, so where is the merit? If you're looking to improve the commerciality about the RC then it's doubtful that playing in another country would be the way forward. This is the marketing guys saying more is more and pissing on us as they do so. It's got sod all to do with the Home Nations and all to do with a quick buck.
 
Ok, so maybe I'm a traditionalist.
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Indeed Cato. And I've always wondered why the likes of Georgia don't get 1% the attention the Argies do from up north. Romania a few years back had a pretty decent team too, but their European counterparts have pretty much so ignored them Has always baffled me that one.
 
It seems the NH has spent more time pining over whose being screwed by Aus/NZ (Islands, Argies etc) and less time focused on who they are screwing themself (Georgia, Romania etc).

Frye

It's a country of 40 million and they can only fill half their stadium when they play Australia.
 
Seems to me there is plenty of potential growth at home. Probably should just focus on that.

Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="570429" data-time="1460069339">
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I reckon adding the Argies into a Lions touring cycle has some merits, perhaps they could tour every three years instead of four.
 
They woulda been cannon fodder years ago, now not so much.
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Since the ARU are in such a sharing mood, give them half the Aussie Lions tour.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="570472" data-time="1460073717">
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Indeed Cato. And I've always wondered why the likes of Georgia don't get 1% the attention the Argies do from up north. Romania a few years back had a pretty decent team too, but their European counterparts have pretty much so ignored them Has always baffled me that one.
 
It seems the NH has spent more time pining over whose being screwed by Aus/NZ (Islands, Argies etc) and less time focused on who they are screwing themself (Georgia, Romania etc).
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The Argies have been competitive (at home) for a number of years, there has been a pretty strong bond from the old amateur days through schools and UK teachers. Much of the traditional links goes back to those times. There is a very strong Welsh influence in the deep south of Argentina. In rugby terms there is a long bond between the UK and Argentina that is not there with Georgia or Romania There was for many years though a secondary International competition for European nations. The only team to be anywhere near competitive was Romania for a few years under communist rule (the team was pretty much all Romanian Army). The whole thing fell apart when communism died. During the time they were at their best most of the home nations played them (Guscott made his debut on a short tour to Romania I think) and France played them quite a lot before and during this period. Georgia have improved out of sight in recent years but in these professional times you can't just say "Well Georgia are good now, we'd better play them". The International calendar is fixed years in advance.
 
I would very much like to see more being down to help the likes of Georgia but trying to shoehorn in games against them these days is pretty nigh impossible.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="570375" data-time="1460046959">
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They've played England at Twickers 4 times since 2000. I'd hazard a guess Fiji have played there almost that much....
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Plus of course the match at Old Trafford.... and they are due to play this year. So six times in 16 years. Within the constraints of professional International rugby that's not too shabby. England have also toured Argentina 6 times over the last thirty odd years. Wales have also toured there 3 times in the last sixteen years and hosted six home matches in that time. Again not too shabby.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="570639" data-time="1460100526">
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Plus of course the match at Old Trafford.... and they are due to play this year. So six times in 16 years. Within the constraints of professional International rugby that's not too shabby. England have also toured Argentina 6 times over the last thirty odd years. Wales have also toured there 3 times in the last sixteen years and hosted six home matches in that time. Again not too shabby.
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I get what you are saying, but its a million miles frrom the games their Tri Nations parttners are getting - and thats what Argentina need to aspire to. And Lions tours or at the very least Lions warm ups - Argentina being the go to team to play the Lions in the UK pre every Lions tour in exchange for a cut of the gate would be huge for them.
 
For me, if I'm the argentine union I'm thinking "6 games in 16 years is shit, SA, ABs etc average 16 games in that period". So then its "how do I ghet up to say 10 in 16 years" and this exhibition is a great way of doing that, and raising their profile & getting an telly audience. Basically I have zero issue finding a logical reason why this game is happening & its fully in line with where Argie rugby need to be.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="570761" data-time="1460105970">
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I get what you are saying, but its a million miles frrom the games their Tri Nations parttners are getting - and thats what Argentina need to aspire to. And Lions tours or at the very least Lions warm ups - Argentina being the go to team to play the Lions in the UK pre every Lions tour in exchange for a cut of the gate would be huge for them.
 
For me, if I'm the argentine union I'm thinking "6 games in 16 years is shit, SA, ABs etc average 16 games in that period". So then its "how do I ghet up to say 10 in 16 years" and this exhibition is a great way of doing that, and raising their profile & getting an telly audience. Basically I have zero issue finding a logical reason why this game is happening & its fully in line with where Argie rugby need to be. 
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Also Argentina gets a terrible fixture list mid year. France comes down a bit but England only toured during the Lions series and so didn't have most of their top squad.

Catogrande

I wouldn't disagree with much of that Gollum, except I don't see this (game) as a means to raise the Argies' profile in the UK. I'm not actually sure they even need to raise their profile in the UK. Sure, it's not as high as the SANZAR nations or the 5 nations but it's probably up there with Italy on the next rung down. Within the genuine rugby fraternity anyway. They come and play us and the stadium is pretty much sold out. In general terms, we like them and respect them.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="570828" data-time="1460110170">
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Also Argentina gets a terrible fixture list mid year. France comes down a bit but England only toured during the Lions series and so didn't have most of their top squad.
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If England toured NZ, SA or Aus in a Lions year we would 
 
A. Get thrashed
B. Get bollocked fro taking away some of the gloss of a Lions tour. Imagine the outcry if England toured Aus just as NZ are hosting the Lions.
 
Argies do not get as nice a fixture list as the 5N or 3N sides, but those fixture lists have been earned over many, many years and as I've said before, you can't just pluck extra fixtures out of thin air at a moments notice these days.
 
Do you really see ANY of the 5N or 3N sides saying"You know what, it's not fair on Argentina, we'll give up a couple of lucrative fixtures for them"?

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="570831" data-time="1460110492">
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If England toured NZ, SA or Aus in a Lions year we would 
 
A. Get thrashed
B. Get bollocked fro taking away some of the gloss of a Lions tour. Imagine the outcry if England toured Aus just as NZ are hosting the Lions.
 
Argies do not get as nice a fixture list as the 5N or 3N sides, but those fixture lists have been earned over many, many years and as I've said before, you can't just pluck extra fixtures out of thin air at a moments notice these days.
 
Do you really see ANY of the 5N or 3N sides saying"You know what, it's not fair on Argentina, we'll give up a couple of lucrative fixtures for them"?
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No and nor should they. However, I think Argentina will get to a stage where they aren't too far behind Australia and they will be able to maintain that level. At that point Argentina will want to be able to cash in.

The Silver Fern

Argentina Australia at.... Twickenham?