Black Caps v England
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I went on Saturday and the NZ bowling display was embarrassingly bad for a test match. Wagner kept bowling those medium pace half trackers and England were just deciding where to hit them, moving to one side of the wicket or the other. The runs leaked so fast, the game was pretty much over by the first break.
Explain this to me - why does Wagner bowl EVERY ball short. In T20 you don't bowl the same ball all the time and if the batsman is premeditating backing away and hitting you over mid-off, surely you have to bowl some variation. The bowler whose name begins with K must never play test cricket again, he just sprays it around.
Top bowling by Broad under the lights. hitting a beautiful length, cutting it in and hitting the stumps against the best batsmen that NZ has.
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For Wagner, those predictable short balls now aren't the threat they were against Steve Smith. He's 37 next month, and even the Naenae Express 'only' made it to 38 at the top level (though 68 in all cricket!). Sir Richard had just ticked over 39 at international retirement.
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Worth noting from the Black Caps Facebook page:
During his 57* in the 2nd innings at Bay Oval, Daryl Mitchell brought up 1,000 Test runs. Mitchell is the 5th fastest New Zealander to reach the milestone and has made six fifty's and four hundreds in his 15 Tests, at an average of 58.
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It's amusing that we are now quite happy to see Henry available for selection. Rightly or wrongly the poor fella has been maligned during his NZ career. Now it's welcome back Matt we missed ya.
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@Crazy-Horse Well he always was a "poor mans Boult/Southee".
Now that Boult has gone the stark realization of how big a gap that is to fill is coming to the fore. Jamieson out is hurting us badly.
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@Windows97 Jamieson is an interesting one. I felt prior to the injury his performances were starting to drop off compared to the outstanding beginning he had. Hopefully he can find his way back up there again.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@Windows97 Jamieson is an interesting one. I felt prior to the injury his performances were starting to drop off compared to the outstanding beginning he had. Hopefully he can find his way back up there again.
he had massive bounce, that troubled lots of very good batsmen. Who knows if he comes back to form; the huge IPL contract seemed to get into his head. Poor bastard, though, stress fractures are shite
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@Windows97 Jamieson is an interesting one. I felt prior to the injury his performances were starting to drop off compared to the outstanding beginning he had. Hopefully he can find his way back up there again.
he had massive bounce, that troubled lots of very good batsmen. Who knows if he comes back to form; the huge IPL contract seemed to get into his head. Poor bastard, though, stress fractures are shite
It depends how they repair it in surgery,Pat Cummins had 3 as a teenager and actually how they fixed the problem, he has never had another Back problem,They did surgically insert Support Rods into Cummins back to stop the strain on the spine.But he still kept his flex for bowling.
If Jamieson has that done he could come back stronger than ever. -
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@Windows97 Jamieson is an interesting one. I felt prior to the injury his performances were starting to drop off compared to the outstanding beginning he had. Hopefully he can find his way back up there again.
he had massive bounce, that troubled lots of very good batsmen. Who knows if he comes back to form; the huge IPL contract seemed to get into his head. Poor bastard, though, stress fractures are shite
Great first year, second year he struggled to live up to the hype, now injuries. I hope he can come back
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are like 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, yet NZ's top order have crazy good averages.
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength...
They are hardly living up to their averages are they,Pathetic batting.
That was a batting clown show I see better batting here in 2nd grade club.Adding to that Hesson actually won nothing no titles as Black Cap Coach and he had Williamson and Taylor 2 of the best batsmen we have ever produced.
At least Stead can retire as the only Black Caps Coach to win a World Title.
And if you believe people he did it with Nicholls who is shit and Latham who cant score runs against the big teams.Chris, I know you will never have a bad word to say about Stead as he's from Canterbury.
This is the most poorly coached Blackcaps side I've seen.
I believe previous coaches Hesson, Wright, Bracewell, Moles, Trist, Aberhart, etc.. when considering context (not just purely results) did comparatively better with worse teams than Stead.
Even when we had a team of literal nobodies except Taylor we at least did things tactically to gain an advantage, we could often play above ourselves due to resourceful tactics - Fleming used to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. We still managed to be competitive despite very limited resources. Under Stead we had close to world-class batting and bowling unit for the 1st time & we don't even compete with top sides unless literally everything is lined-up in our favor.
Stead is the worst coach we've had, and I stand by that.
You are allowed to have an opinion and some I don’t disagree with,I believe it is time for a change and a new voice,
But the players need to take responsibility for their performances on the field or no matter who the coach is we will get the same results.
As a coach the first players you drop are the ones who deflect from their own performances as they will never learn and ruin the team culture.
I want to see players stand up and own their bad performances not blame others for their poor judgement, lack of fight and it seems bad preparation leading to the bad performances.
Cricket is different from other team sports it is individual performances within a team enviroment.
Players need to stand up and deliver for what they are paid for.
Not treat cricket like a joke, I was embarrassed by that result and I want to see the players own it.
And looking at the talent coming through after watching the domestic scene in NZ this season it is in a terrible state with a lot of pain to come.Chris from the "Blacks v England" thread should introduce himself to Chris from the "Foster, Robertson, etc" thread
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@junior said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are like 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, yet NZ's top order have crazy good averages.
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength...
They are hardly living up to their averages are they,Pathetic batting.
That was a batting clown show I see better batting here in 2nd grade club.Adding to that Hesson actually won nothing no titles as Black Cap Coach and he had Williamson and Taylor 2 of the best batsmen we have ever produced.
At least Stead can retire as the only Black Caps Coach to win a World Title.
And if you believe people he did it with Nicholls who is shit and Latham who cant score runs against the big teams.Chris, I know you will never have a bad word to say about Stead as he's from Canterbury.
This is the most poorly coached Blackcaps side I've seen.
I believe previous coaches Hesson, Wright, Bracewell, Moles, Trist, Aberhart, etc.. when considering context (not just purely results) did comparatively better with worse teams than Stead.
Even when we had a team of literal nobodies except Taylor we at least did things tactically to gain an advantage, we could often play above ourselves due to resourceful tactics - Fleming used to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. We still managed to be competitive despite very limited resources. Under Stead we had close to world-class batting and bowling unit for the 1st time & we don't even compete with top sides unless literally everything is lined-up in our favor.
Stead is the worst coach we've had, and I stand by that.
You are allowed to have an opinion and some I don’t disagree with,I believe it is time for a change and a new voice,
But the players need to take responsibility for their performances on the field or no matter who the coach is we will get the same results.
As a coach the first players you drop are the ones who deflect from their own performances as they will never learn and ruin the team culture.
I want to see players stand up and own their bad performances not blame others for their poor judgement, lack of fight and it seems bad preparation leading to the bad performances.
Cricket is different from other team sports it is individual performances within a team enviroment.
Players need to stand up and deliver for what they are paid for.
Not treat cricket like a joke, I was embarrassed by that result and I want to see the players own it.
And looking at the talent coming through after watching the domestic scene in NZ this season it is in a terrible state with a lot of pain to come.Chris from the "Blacks v England" thread should introduce himself to Chris from the "Foster, Robertson, etc" thread
Most excellent burn!
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Forecast slowly improving here in Wellington. Looks like Friday will be a washout and the other days ok. Still time for England to humilate us.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
It's amusing that we are now quite happy to see Henry available for selection. Rightly or wrongly the poor fella has been maligned during his NZ career. Now it's welcome back Matt we missed ya.
Because the step down from Boult (or Southee) to Henry as a new-ball bowler isn't massive.
Although, obviously the other 2 are better, have more experience and more proven value in variable conditions.
The gaping hole is the older-ball bowling. Where Wagner, CdG and Jamieson are inconveniently coordinating their decline / retirement / injuries respectively.
On a tangent:
Which is where Tickner has some of the attributes to succeed in the hard role (3rd/4th seamer). Height and decent pace. It is whether he has the accuracy/discipline/patience to succeed there. Forming an opinion of whether he is suited to that based on watching him 'mixing up his varieties' in international white-ball cricket would be a por way to do it.He did reasonably well at The Mount, as was indicated may happen by his NZ A performances. A pretty good selection IMO, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
but, a caveat - playing England is a bit weird at the moment. And forming opinions based on playing them, may not translate to other teams.
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@junior said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are like 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, yet NZ's top order have crazy good averages.
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength...
They are hardly living up to their averages are they,Pathetic batting.
That was a batting clown show I see better batting here in 2nd grade club.Adding to that Hesson actually won nothing no titles as Black Cap Coach and he had Williamson and Taylor 2 of the best batsmen we have ever produced.
At least Stead can retire as the only Black Caps Coach to win a World Title.
And if you believe people he did it with Nicholls who is shit and Latham who cant score runs against the big teams.Chris, I know you will never have a bad word to say about Stead as he's from Canterbury.
This is the most poorly coached Blackcaps side I've seen.
I believe previous coaches Hesson, Wright, Bracewell, Moles, Trist, Aberhart, etc.. when considering context (not just purely results) did comparatively better with worse teams than Stead.
Even when we had a team of literal nobodies except Taylor we at least did things tactically to gain an advantage, we could often play above ourselves due to resourceful tactics - Fleming used to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. We still managed to be competitive despite very limited resources. Under Stead we had close to world-class batting and bowling unit for the 1st time & we don't even compete with top sides unless literally everything is lined-up in our favor.
Stead is the worst coach we've had, and I stand by that.
You are allowed to have an opinion and some I don’t disagree with,I believe it is time for a change and a new voice,
But the players need to take responsibility for their performances on the field or no matter who the coach is we will get the same results.
As a coach the first players you drop are the ones who deflect from their own performances as they will never learn and ruin the team culture.
I want to see players stand up and own their bad performances not blame others for their poor judgement, lack of fight and it seems bad preparation leading to the bad performances.
Cricket is different from other team sports it is individual performances within a team enviroment.
Players need to stand up and deliver for what they are paid for.
Not treat cricket like a joke, I was embarrassed by that result and I want to see the players own it.
And looking at the talent coming through after watching the domestic scene in NZ this season it is in a terrible state with a lot of pain to come.Chris from the "Blacks v England" thread should introduce himself to Chris from the "Foster, Robertson, etc" thread
And if you knew anything about cricket you would know the players have more responsibility to perform as individuals than in a team collective.
So it is chalk and cheese comparing Rugby to Cricket as far as coaching goes. -
@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
It's amusing that we are now quite happy to see Henry available for selection. Rightly or wrongly the poor fella has been maligned during his NZ career. Now it's welcome back Matt we missed ya.
Because the step down from Boult (or Southee) to Henry as a new-ball bowler isn't massive.
Although, obviously the other 2 are better, have more experience and more proven value in variable conditions.
The gaping hole is the older-ball bowling. Where Wagner, CdG and Jamieson are inconveniently coordinating their decline / retirement / injuries respectively.
On a tangent:
Which is where Tickner has some of the attributes to succeed in the hard role (3rd/4th seamer). Height and decent pace. It is whether he has the accuracy/discipline/patience to succeed there. Forming an opinion of whether he is suited to that based on watching him 'mixing up his varieties' in international white-ball cricket would be a por way to do it.He did reasonably well at The Mount, as was indicated may happen by his NZ A performances. A pretty good selection IMO, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
but, a caveat - playing England is a bit weird at the moment. And forming opinions based on playing them, may not translate to other teams.
I agree on Tickner he brings a point of difference with his height and extra pace,Worth a punt, variety is always good.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@junior said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are like 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, yet NZ's top order have crazy good averages.
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength...
They are hardly living up to their averages are they,Pathetic batting.
That was a batting clown show I see better batting here in 2nd grade club.Adding to that Hesson actually won nothing no titles as Black Cap Coach and he had Williamson and Taylor 2 of the best batsmen we have ever produced.
At least Stead can retire as the only Black Caps Coach to win a World Title.
And if you believe people he did it with Nicholls who is shit and Latham who cant score runs against the big teams.Chris, I know you will never have a bad word to say about Stead as he's from Canterbury.
This is the most poorly coached Blackcaps side I've seen.
I believe previous coaches Hesson, Wright, Bracewell, Moles, Trist, Aberhart, etc.. when considering context (not just purely results) did comparatively better with worse teams than Stead.
Even when we had a team of literal nobodies except Taylor we at least did things tactically to gain an advantage, we could often play above ourselves due to resourceful tactics - Fleming used to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. We still managed to be competitive despite very limited resources. Under Stead we had close to world-class batting and bowling unit for the 1st time & we don't even compete with top sides unless literally everything is lined-up in our favor.
Stead is the worst coach we've had, and I stand by that.
You are allowed to have an opinion and some I don’t disagree with,I believe it is time for a change and a new voice,
But the players need to take responsibility for their performances on the field or no matter who the coach is we will get the same results.
As a coach the first players you drop are the ones who deflect from their own performances as they will never learn and ruin the team culture.
I want to see players stand up and own their bad performances not blame others for their poor judgement, lack of fight and it seems bad preparation leading to the bad performances.
Cricket is different from other team sports it is individual performances within a team enviroment.
Players need to stand up and deliver for what they are paid for.
Not treat cricket like a joke, I was embarrassed by that result and I want to see the players own it.
And looking at the talent coming through after watching the domestic scene in NZ this season it is in a terrible state with a lot of pain to come.Chris from the "Blacks v England" thread should introduce himself to Chris from the "Foster, Robertson, etc" thread
And if you knew anything about cricket you would know the players have more responsibility to perform as individuals than in a team collective.
So it is chalk and cheese comparing Rugby to Cricket as far as coaching goes.I get the point but isn't that underestimating the individual performance side of rugby? Sure you are playing to team patterns and have responsibilities to keep to those but individual attitude, fitness and skills all come into play. Many a rugby coach has had the whole team effort derailed by a lck of individual performance.
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@Crucial said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@junior said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are like 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, yet NZ's top order have crazy good averages.
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength...
They are hardly living up to their averages are they,Pathetic batting.
That was a batting clown show I see better batting here in 2nd grade club.Adding to that Hesson actually won nothing no titles as Black Cap Coach and he had Williamson and Taylor 2 of the best batsmen we have ever produced.
At least Stead can retire as the only Black Caps Coach to win a World Title.
And if you believe people he did it with Nicholls who is shit and Latham who cant score runs against the big teams.Chris, I know you will never have a bad word to say about Stead as he's from Canterbury.
This is the most poorly coached Blackcaps side I've seen.
I believe previous coaches Hesson, Wright, Bracewell, Moles, Trist, Aberhart, etc.. when considering context (not just purely results) did comparatively better with worse teams than Stead.
Even when we had a team of literal nobodies except Taylor we at least did things tactically to gain an advantage, we could often play above ourselves due to resourceful tactics - Fleming used to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. We still managed to be competitive despite very limited resources. Under Stead we had close to world-class batting and bowling unit for the 1st time & we don't even compete with top sides unless literally everything is lined-up in our favor.
Stead is the worst coach we've had, and I stand by that.
You are allowed to have an opinion and some I don’t disagree with,I believe it is time for a change and a new voice,
But the players need to take responsibility for their performances on the field or no matter who the coach is we will get the same results.
As a coach the first players you drop are the ones who deflect from their own performances as they will never learn and ruin the team culture.
I want to see players stand up and own their bad performances not blame others for their poor judgement, lack of fight and it seems bad preparation leading to the bad performances.
Cricket is different from other team sports it is individual performances within a team enviroment.
Players need to stand up and deliver for what they are paid for.
Not treat cricket like a joke, I was embarrassed by that result and I want to see the players own it.
And looking at the talent coming through after watching the domestic scene in NZ this season it is in a terrible state with a lot of pain to come.Chris from the "Blacks v England" thread should introduce himself to Chris from the "Foster, Robertson, etc" thread
And if you knew anything about cricket you would know the players have more responsibility to perform as individuals than in a team collective.
So it is chalk and cheese comparing Rugby to Cricket as far as coaching goes.I get the point but isn't that underestimating the individual performance side of rugby? Sure you are playing to team patterns and have responsibilities to keep to those but individual attitude, fitness and skills all come into play. Many a rugby coach has had the whole team effort derailed by a lck of individual performance.
Not really as coaching sessions in Cricket have a big focus on individual training one on ones, as a group you may have a 1 hour training session a week as team during a fielding session.
As a batsmen for instance you do not have 14 players on the field with you to cover for you if you make a very bad decision and get out you are off the field and don't contribute to that innings anymore.
Where in Rugby if you miss a tackle 14 other players can cover your mistake and make that tackle.And you can play on to redeem yourself.
In Cricket you are batting to your individual pattern and technique not a team pattern set by a coach, you might have a goal in mind but you go about getting there yourself with your individual decision making with each ball you face,With no cover from another team member.
Individuals prepare themselves to play more as individuals than Rugby players.
Yes many a coach as been derailed in Rugby by an indivdual performance,But less so because 14 other players can cover that individual performance,In Cricket a lot less.
one mistake in Cricket and it can be more costly than a Rugby game not always but more times than not.
