Black Caps v England
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So for the Basin, maybe...
- Conway
- Latham
- Young
- Williamson
- Mitchell
- Blundell
- M. Bracewell/Sodhi
- D. Bracewell
- Henry
- Southee
- Wagner
Could be convinced either way on the spinners. Ish is the better spinner, M. Bracewell in theory stronger with the bat. Not that the Basin is renowned for much spin. Could also go with different orders for that top four.
I can't remember seeing Glen Phillips bowl in recent years, so am assuming the 'four pace bowlers plus a (more) part time spinner' option is out.
As for M. Bracewell, if he had the same bowling figures as Wagner in this test, the thread would be in full meltdown...
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Refuse to read the thread.
And we were worried about our bowling without Boult.
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@Donsteppa Phillips instead of Sodhi/M Bracewell with Phillips/Mitchell enough for a 5th bowler imo.
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v England:
@Donsteppa Phillips instead of Sodhi/M Bracewell with Phillips/Mitchell enough for a 5th bowler imo.
I'd be tempted with that. Mitchell isn't going to set the world on fire, but I think he's also underused as a 5th/6th bowling option.
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@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are at least 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, despite NZ's batting unit being currently of unprecedented caliber...
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength.
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@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are like 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, yet NZ's top order have crazy good averages.
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength...
They are hardly living up to their averages are they,Pathetic batting.
That was a batting clown show I see better batting here in 2nd grade club.Adding to that Hesson actually won nothing no titles as Black Cap Coach and he had Williamson and Taylor 2 of the best batsmen we have ever produced.
At least Stead can retire as the only Black Caps Coach to win a World Title.
And if you believe people he did it with Nicholls who is shit and Latham who cant score runs against the big teams. -
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
Larsen is a selector as well. One who wouldn't pick Boult FFS.
Even though it severely weakened the team I had no problem not picking Boult. He made his choice to be a free agent and chase the money, so this is a consequence of that decision. If he was prepared to play free I'd select him.
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@Bovidae said in Black Caps v England:
If he was prepared to play free I'd select him.
he's just not contracted. Would command a standard match fee - adn that's it!
I'm happy in principle not picking him in most conditions, but when yuo lose your two next best bowlers, it's cutting off your nose tos pite your face.
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see, and here's the thing. Our opportunity was to roll them for 300 not 400. Do that, and the new ball comes out during daylight, our batters establish by the night session and the ball you're facing isn't doing as much. Our inability to bowl them out cost us time, runs and ultimately the test.
Our chance to win this game were signiicantly higher chasing 300 with a decent start during the day. It's really annoying.
I don't like day/night test cricket for many reasons, and the latest test hasn't really changed my opinion.
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
@Bovidae said in Black Caps v England:
If he was prepared to play free I'd select him.
he's just not contracted. Would command a standard match fee - adn that's it!
I'm happy in principle not picking him in most conditions, but when yuo lose your two next best bowlers, it's cutting off your nose tos pite your face.
No, he'd have needed permission from his boss. And I reckon it would gave been a "no". He's not a freelancer. Hes in a 1 month gap between commitments for them.
The language Stead used made it seem they were in control ,by not asking him. But I'm 90% of the opinion it would have been turned down anyway.
I reckon he'll play the world cup, though. No clashes with his Indian franchise commitments, and his bosses would be up for it. Would help their brand in their main market.
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v England:
@Bovidae said in Black Caps v England:
If he was prepared to play free I'd select him.
he's just not contracted. Would command a standard match fee - adn that's it!
I'm happy in principle not picking him in most conditions, but when yuo lose your two next best bowlers, it's cutting off your nose tos pite your face.
No, he'd have needed permission from his boss. And I reckon it would gave been a "no". He's not a freelancer. Hes in a 1 month gap between commitments for them.
The language Stead used made it seem they were in control ,by not asking him. But I'm 90% of the opinion it would have been turned down anyway.
I reckon he'll play the world cup, though. No clashes with his Indian franchise commitments, and his bosses would be up for it. Would help their brand in their main market.
Boult will 100% play the WC I think that is a done deal.I hear from Shaun the BC bowling coach.
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@Rapido I haven't read your theory anywhere except here. Ian Anderson raises a variety of possibilities, but the best info we have is Stead saying they haven't asked.
I'm of the view that it's not about Trent, it's about the fans - well, frankly, ME.
If anyone could match Broad under lights it would have been Trent. And, frankly, after the Justin Vaughan debacle that deprived me of a significant portion of Shane Bond, this would be but a small repayment of the debt they owe me!!!
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@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are at least 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, despite NZ's batting unit being currently of unprecedented caliber...
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength.
I think it's probably time to move on from Stead but I am not sure getting rid of him will solve too many problems. Probably half that team is a big step down on what we had a few years ago and as far as I have seen there are no players screaming out that they are going to be any better. Any player changes is just shuffling the deck chairs.
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@Chris-B said in Black Caps v England:
@Rapido I haven't read your theory anywhere except here. Ian Anderson raises a variety of possibilities, but the best info we have is Stead saying they haven't asked.
I'm of the view that it's not about Trent, it's about the fans - well, frankly, ME.
If anyone could match Broad under lights it would have been Trent. And, frankly, after the Justin Vaughan debacle that deprived me of a significant portion of Shane Bond, this would be but a small repayment of the debt they owe me!!!
Yes, he should have asked, IMO.
I don't think we should be precious about other people paying our players salaries.
But, I reckon it would gave been a no.
I just dont think he's keen, on tests anymore.
And from the comments on here, I just dont think people have clicked that hes not really a freelancer . Being a cricket freelancer is actually a pretty shit gig, with no to little access to coaches, insurance, fitness coaches, medical etc. That is not Trent's situation. Trent is employed by his IPL franchise who own teams in about 5 leagues , therefore it is worthwhile for them to employ him directly and provide the type of in-house service like I listed above. Even if Trent wanted to play he would gave needed approval from his coach, and GM.
I think they (Stead, Larsen) would have needed answers / certainty quicker than what Boult could have given them. Assuming he even wanted to play.
I definitely think it would have been worth exploring this avenue for the second test , though.
(Edit. This is just my reading of the situation. I dont claim any inside knowledge on Boult's contract)
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@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are at least 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, despite NZ's batting unit being currently of unprecedented caliber...
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength.
I think it's probably time to move on from Stead but I am not sure getting rid of him will solve too many problems. Probably half that team is a big step down on what we had a few years ago and as far as I have seen there are no players screaming out that they are going to be any better. Any player changes is just shuffling the deck chairs.
I also think it is time to move on from Stead. But, I also don't really put any blame at his door. Well, not with any certainty,. It is hard to gauge the impacts of a head coach, but I think we can assess Stead as a reasonable coach of a high performing team. But it is probably getting stale. Maybe there are better out there, also some worse. But captains and team culture play as big or bigger role.
The thing is, the decline shouldn't be happening yet.
We will gave a tough few years ahead, because the next generation isnt a patch on what we've had the last 10 years.
But, not yet.
We had 4 old players ar time of WTC win that we knew were retiring or would be soon.
We've phased out 3 of our 4 old players. And 2 of those replacements are huge improvements on the recent years form (declining powers) of those they replaced.
We aren't suffering the personnel crisis yet. Apart from Kane missing much of last year, and now Boult from now on.
We should still be experiencing the good times at the moment, with the hangover still to come. But we've been shit for our last 11 tests.
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@Rapido said in Black Caps v England:
@Crazy-Horse said in Black Caps v England:
@kiwi_expat said in Black Caps v England:
@Chris said in Black Caps v England:
no use slamming Stead if he has not got the cattle to pick from, he still as coach has to try and win games.
poor Gary cattle less Stead - he has 3 of the 6 test batsmen averaging 50+, a keeper averaging 45 and an opener averaging 40+ we are at least 3x worse than when Hesson was coach, despite NZ's batting unit being currently of unprecedented caliber...
We have a top order averaging 55, 42, 54, 40, 58, 45, Mike Hesson would've given his right arm for a batting unit of that strength.
I think it's probably time to move on from Stead but I am not sure getting rid of him will solve too many problems. Probably half that team is a big step down on what we had a few years ago and as far as I have seen there are no players screaming out that they are going to be any better. Any player changes is just shuffling the deck chairs.
I also think it is time to move on from Stead. But, I also don't really put any blame at his door. Well, not with any certainty,. It is hard to gauge the impacts of a head coach, but I think we can assess Stead as a reasonable coach of a high performing team. But it is probably getting stale. Maybe there are better out there, also some worse. But captains and team culture play as big or bigger role.
The thing is, the decline shouldn't be happening yet.
We will gave a tough few years ahead, because the next generation isnt a patch on what we've had the last 10 years.
But, not yet.
We had 4 old players ar time of WTC win that we knew were retiring or would be soon.
We've phased out 3 of our 4 old players. And 2 of those replacements are huge improvements on the recent years form (declining powers) of those they replaced.
We aren't suffering the personnel crisis yet. Apart from Kane missing much of last year, and now Boult from now on.
We should still be experiencing the good times at the moment, with the hangover still to come. But we've been shit for our last 11 tests.
The players have to take responsibility for the last batting performance and some others I have seen
When the batsmen cross the boundary line they take ownership of a lack of application, making poor quite lazy decisions and a lack of Fight.
The coach does not cross that boundary and bat for or with the batsmen if they do not take on board the mistakes they made but deflect elsewhere then you have the wrong players in your team.
I saw a real lack of wanting to do the hard yards in this test and some others by the players.
Maybe it is time to move on Gary Stead and a new voice, ideas and enthusiasm may help.
But the blame lays mostly on the players for the efforts they put in.
