All Blacks 2023

Crucial

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:

Those three are all world class.

well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now

NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.

Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.

Chris

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both

100 % yes.

You sort of think the coaching staff in charge of developing a winning AB team would have come to this conclusion a few years ago.
As a coach you sit down before taking something on and devise how you want to play, what talent you have and how it fits in to what you perceive as a winning game plan.
More so if you are planning 4 years in advance to get to a WC with a high chance of winning that WC as there are more variables in a 4 year cycle.

mariner4life

@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:

Those three are all world class.

well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now

NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.

Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.

that's laughably wide.

Would either of our three main competitors right now start any of them? No
Would any of them make the bench? maybe.

I'm not even convinced they would play for England, given how England want to play.

If you are putting together a World 23 are any of them really in the conversation? I would say no

taniwharugby

I'm def in the camp we have the players (maybe not the best, but certainly good enough) but the game plans employed are not playing to thier strengths, not to mention some out of position play, which affects things further.

Crucial

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:

@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:

Those three are all world class.

well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now

NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.

Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.

that's laughably wide.

Would either of our three main competitors right now start any of them? No
Would any of them make the bench? maybe.

I'm not even convinced they would play for England, given how England want to play.

If you are putting together a World 23 are any of them really in the conversation? I would say no

So we have a different definition.

No Quarter

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:

I'm def in the camp we have the players (maybe not the best, but certainly good enough) but the game plans employed are not playing to thier strengths, not to mention some out of position play, which affects things further.

Outside of 10 we definitely have the players capable of beating anyone. But our 10s are very hot and cold even at Super level, let alone in the pressure cooker of a test against the top sides. Agree with @mariner4life, there's no way we can call our 10s world class when they are simply not among the best in the world. Dan Carter was world class. Aaron Cruden was world class. Our current 10s are miles behind those two.

nzzp

@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:

Dan Carter was world class. Aaron Cruden was world class. Our current 10s are miles behind those two.

I'd probably take Sopoaga above the current 10s as well. He was developing really nicely and played execptionally well in that win against SA in Joburg

Tom Taylor seemed a talent too; it's a real pity we lost him

KiwiMurph

@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:

That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot

Jordie's boot from the back is simply not accurate. For whatever reason it just isn't. He has a big boot but from fullback it's never been accurate.

Crazy Horse

I have never really understood where 'Jordie has a big boot on him' has come from. I suppose it looks big compared to the pea shooters we have going around NZ at the moment, but I don't think it is consistently big on the world stage.

Kiwiwomble

@Crazy-Horse i'll admit i have always thought he had a big boot, maybe i fell for the hype?

edit: i know is a place kick but over 60m is a decent kick

Chris B.

Poor old Beaudy - two time World Player of the Year playing first five...... living in the outhouse.

I think we're waaay harsh on our first fives.

If Handre Pollard was one of ours, we'd think he was complete rubbish.

Crazy Horse

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

@Crazy-Horse i'll admit i have always thought he had a big boot, maybe i fell for the hype?

edit: i know is a place kick but over 60m is a decent kick

Yeah he can pull out a decent place kick, agree there. I was referring to his punting. It's not a consistent weapon at test level. Every now and then I see coverage from a few years ago with Dagg punting. It's quite noticeable the distance he consistently got compared to the guys around today.

Kiwiwomble

@Crazy-Horse yeah, i know we were talking more about open play, that what i acknowledged that video was a place kick so not quite the same thing

I think a lot if how we are trying to play, i was thinking about it and when hes doing a kick return....my feeling is mostly going to hit it up...second most likely is a bomb...kicking for territory in open play seems very much down the list of options, comparing to Gilbert for the highlanders (similar kind of build, tall fullbacks), he'll go for the low raking punt on the return quite often. the simple answer is we dont have the weapons the AB's have and so territory is the safe option...but he count point is the AB are also up against better defences

Kiwiwomble

@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:

Poor old Beaudy - two time World Player of the Year playing first five...... living in the outhouse.

I think we're waaay harsh on our first fives.

If Handre Pollard was one of ours, we'd think he was complete rubbish.

most recently in 2017...is he any better now that 6 years ago...is he even that good now?

Chris B.

@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:

@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:

Poor old Beaudy - two time World Player of the Year playing first five...... living in the outhouse.

I think we're waaay harsh on our first fives.

If Handre Pollard was one of ours, we'd think he was complete rubbish.

most recently in 2017...is he any better now that 6 years ago...is he even that good now?

Not really the point I'm making.

I'm pretty sure Danny Boy and Cruden aren't world class these days either.

Kiwiwomble

@Chris-B but we're not relying on them to win us another world cup

Chris B.

@Kiwiwomble We were relying on Danny in 2015, but most people would rather have had Cruden playing first five if he wasn't broken - especially as Dan (and Richie McCaw) phoned it in for yet another Super season under Toddy Blackadder.

Four years ago, who would have traded Richie or Beaudy for the creaking Jonny Sexton who'd just had his arse handed to him in a hat in Japan?

We can win the RWC with our first fives - especially Richie. And if we can't, how come our other AB laden Super teams can't ever seem to stop him at the business end of Super rugby?

Dan54

@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:

@Kiwiwomble We were relying on Danny in 2015, but most people would rather have had Cruden playing first five if he wasn't broken - especially as Dan (and Richie McCaw) phoned it in for yet another Super season under Toddy Blackadder.

Four years ago, who would have traded Richie or Beaudy for the creaking Jonny Sexton who'd just had his arse handed to him in a hat in Japan?

We can win the RWC with our first fives - especially Richie. And if we can't, how come our other AB laden Super teams can't ever seem to stop him at the business end of Super rugby?

Man I heard a few idiots calling for Richie to be canned early in 2015 (that;s what forums are for I think), but have to admit didn't know anyone wanting same for DC.
But with RMo, who I think is obviously our 10 in WC, and is best,of out lot at this stage, though perhaps like Kiwi not convinced that 10 is a strong position for us at test level. Certainly none of the 3 we got have been to convincing at that level last few years.